Wine & Alcohol: Take Off from Alcohol Dinner Party Thread

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JennyG

Puritan Board Graduate
JennyG,

Please do notg feel piled on. I assure you, Ma'am, such was not my intent. My whole purpose in beginning this thread was to avoid the derailment of the other thread, which had a different scope, thrust, and intention altogether. I would not for a moment judge you in your abstaining. If it has came across as such, I sincerely offer my most humble of apologies. At the same token, I hope that you will not tell me what's better (to abstain) for me to do, if God Himself has not done so. That is not an objective fact. The particular believer struggling with such must take into account multiple circumstances that bear upon their station in life, as to whether they should or should not abstain, and even then if it will be permanent or temporary.

Every blessing!
Thank you Josh. I apologise too for any tactlessness. Anything God says is right, IS right, of course, only your last sentence sums up the other side of the coin which must be just as important. being new I didn't really understand this was already much gone over by the natives!
I'm not even a total abstainer by the way, but around a young person
who might be influenced, I wouldn't consider touching it. Where I live, in Scotland the alcohol capital of the world, if a guy such as yourself was observed by the kids to be a non-drinker, it could do an incalculable amount of good.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Jesus made wine. I like wine. I'm curious, did anyone get drunk at that wedding?
Dear Joe,
I enjoy a beer or two from time to time, but we shouldn't make light of drunkenness. We are not told that anybody got drunk at Cana, and therefore to associate our Lord in this way, with drunkenness - which is sinful - even only in speculation into things not revealed about whether the wine He made was used properly or abused, I think is going too far. :2cents:

Richard.
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
When speaking to young people I compare alcohol to a power saw. You must never stop respecting the amount of damage that a power saw can do. I worked in a saw mill and our injuries came about when we got 'comfortable' with the saws, we assumed we wouldn't get hurt because they were so familiar to us. Paul puts it this way in 1 Cor. 10:12 "Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."

Comfort and familiarity does not remove the potential danger of a power tool. We should educate and give the appropriate cautions with power tools and alcohol.

And by the way, NEVER operate power tools when drinking alcohol.
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
When in fact a better approach would be quiet respect and forebearance for what has been and continues to be an area of great struggle for many Christians
.

Jenny could have substituted sex for alcohol and there would have been no difference in the quality of the opening post.

But with the state of society today, I think believers do better to be total abstainers than risk causing any other person to stumble.
 

he beholds

Puritan Board Doctor
Jenny,

This is one of these issues where the "strong" need to shut up already.

Too often pro-alcohol consumers are very emphatic that "they" are strong and have to educate all those poor weak brothers and sisters.

When in fact a better approach would be quiet respect and forebearance for what has been and continues to be an area of great struggle for many Christians.

Dan
Not when approached by the "weak" who asked him to defend his behavior (that of posting about alcohol here).
 

Wannabee

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jesus made wine. I like wine. I'm curious, did anyone get drunk at that wedding?
Dear Joe,
I enjoy a beer or two from time to time, but we shouldn't make light of drunkenness. We are not told that anybody got drunk at Cana, and therefore to associate our Lord in this way, with drunkenness - which is sinful - even only in speculation into things not revealed about whether the wine He made was used properly or abused, I think is going too far. :2cents:

Richard.
Dear Richard,
Though couched in a touch of sarcasm, it was an honest question that I've pondered. Men sin with the blessings of God on a regular basis. With this in mind, it is a pertinent question. Perhaps my flippant "tone" wasn't in the best taste however.
 

Curt

Puritan Board Graduate
And there we have a fundamental difference, I want us all to discuss this freely and openly and Dan accuses me of heavy handed proselytizing and I should 'shut up'.

Dan, 'quiet respect and forebearance' does not have to mean 'shut up'. Back up and give this one another go, I'll be patient this time.
Bawb,

I think you have been more than reasonable. There are, indeed, differences in how Christians view this issue. This is NOT a fundamental of the faith. We do need to be charitable to one another.
 

Lady of the Lake

Puritan Board Freshman
I'm not even a total abstainer by the way, but around a young person who might be influenced, I wouldn't consider touching it. Where I live, in Scotland the alcohol capital of the world, if a guy such as yourself was observed by the kids to be a non-drinker, it could do an incalculable amount of good.
I would have found it quite helpful if this information had been included in the original post.
 

DanMcCormack

Puritan Board Freshman
Well I hope, Sir, you're not imputing such assassinations to the character of those involved with this thread. Paul uses the terms strong and weak for a purpose, and it has nothing to do with intrinsic value, I believe, but maturation and understanding. That is no slight, or it shouldn't be, to anyone. As for respect and forbearance, I certainly couldn't agree more. Part of that respect in forbearance includes not letting their usage of things indifferent be called sin. It also includes gently, winsomely, and respectfully teaching that we may not call sin what God has not called sin, since we may not be holier than God, the All Holy, is.
I have not here -- or ever -- called consuming alcohol "sin" (Despite growing up with an alcoholic father and all the misery that can bring to childhood).

I apologized for suggesting crudely that those who perceive they are "strong" simply "shut up."

But if that fumbled attempt at humor equals "assassinations to character " -- well, forgive this Infantry grunt -- I'm on the wrong board.

Anyway -- I do believe that the law of conscience God provides through Paul in Romans implies that we of less weakness in some areas flaunt that "strength," we may in turn be setting ourselves up for a fall, and harming the conscience of a brother or sister who reasons, "Well, if that's ok for them, then this is OK for me..."

Sure, the "weaker brother" is wrong to think that.

But if my exercise of freedom condemns another -- is it really about freedom or is about boasting in my strength?
 

dr_parsley

Puritan Board Freshman
I admit a semi-wrinkled eyebrow when I skimmed the first page of the Alcohol Dinner Party thread not at all because it is about alcohol - I love it! - but because it seemed to be about making a plan to drink a lot of alcohol. It was merely a semi-wrinkled querulous eyebrow because I trust participants would not be so silly, but perhaps the communication could have been handled a little bit better to avoid giving that impression... ::shrug::
 

JennyG

Puritan Board Graduate
I'm not even a total abstainer by the way, but around a young person who might be influenced, I wouldn't consider touching it. Where I live, in Scotland the alcohol capital of the world, if a guy such as yourself was observed by the kids to be a non-drinker, it could do an incalculable amount of good.
I would have found it quite helpful if this information had been included in the original post.
sorry about that! though I'm not sure which info exactly you mean.
In any case, the OP was not actually an OP at all. If I had set out to start a thread I suppose I would have made it a bit more comprehensive.
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
Dear Joe,
I enjoy a beer or two from time to time, but we shouldn't make light of drunkenness. We are not told that anybody got drunk at Cana
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk
Joh 2:6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water." And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And he said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast." So they took it.
Joh 2:9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom
Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
Joh 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory.
No one there stopped at one or two glasses of wine. Your eyes don't get red after one or two beers. After they'd all got a good buzz they drunk more. Maccabees has a description of a feast during those times and in that culture.
 

JennyG

Puritan Board Graduate
Tim, you say:
Jenny could have substituted sex for alcohol and there would have been no difference in the quality of the opening post.
I don't think so at all. For sex there is a clear and plain right context, ie marriage. We know how carefully we should be using alcohol and why, but there is nothing analogous to marriage to which you can point a YP needing guidance (show me one who doesn't) for a clear and simple rule. Shades of grey they don't yet need.
I think looking at this thread, we are all actually in perfect agreement about this. We all know alcohol is blessed and sanctioned by God, and we all know how easy it is to misuse, and how important not to lead anyone else astray. It's only the practical implications that are an issue.
Around the unchurched kids of my acquaintance, for whom "getting wasted" is a badge of the adult and the cool, I'm more than happy to look uncool and wimpy, in fact I can't believe anything else would be appropriate.

-----Added 8/1/2009 at 06:20:12 EST-----

Tim refs;
Joh 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water." And they filled them up to the brim.
Now this is almost totally off topic, but it's always intrigued me... how could they do that?? It sounds as though using a well, that would take literally hours.
Can anyone shed any light? Should I start a new thread somewhere else?? but it doesn't seem to warrant that, - I have no doubt that if John says they did it, then somehow, they did!
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
I don't see agreement. I see mostly (at least in the Americans posting) a difference between Baptist and Reformed mind sets, and if you grew up in both cultures like I did you'd (I think) see it too.

Around kids responsible drinking by Christians is better than going without, so drink isn't some sort of mysterious thing they want to try as soon as they are able. I know most of my friends let even young kids, as in six or seven years old have a bit now and then. I find that they are less likely to abuse drink than I was, having not experienced it as kid in a fundy environment and not knowing how to properly handle it. I'm seeing the same thing now in the members of my extended family.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Dear Joe,
I enjoy a beer or two from time to time, but we shouldn't make light of drunkenness. We are not told that anybody got drunk at Cana
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk
Joh 2:6 Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water." And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And he said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast." So they took it.
Joh 2:9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom
Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
Joh 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory.
No one there stopped at one or two glasses of wine. Your eyes don't get red after one or two beers. After they'd all got a good buzz they drunk more. Maccabees has a description of a feast during those times and in that culture.
Dear Tim,
The quote from Genesis about the Messiah is apparently a very poor translation. To say that someone's eyes were dark like wine on the other hand referred to their handsomeness, in this case the spiritual captivatingness of the Christ.

Re Cana, we don't know the strength of the wine and the passage doesn't specifically mention that anyone was drunk. I know that it would be their responsibility if they abused Jesus' wine, but since Scripture is silent on the matter, it would be wrong to go further than Scripture and even imply that He was enabling a drunken party by honest mistake, by making the wine.

Richard.
 

he beholds

Puritan Board Doctor
I'm not even a total abstainer by the way, but around a young person who might be influenced, I wouldn't consider touching it. Where I live, in Scotland the alcohol capital of the world, if a guy such as yourself was observed by the kids to be a non-drinker, it could do an incalculable amount of good.
I would have found it quite helpful if this information had been included in the original post.
sorry about that! though I'm not sure which info exactly you mean.
In any case, the OP was not actually an OP at all. If I had set out to start a thread I suppose I would have made it a bit more comprehensive.
I did not realize that your post on another thread was turned into a whole new thread! That makes a lot more sense now. Perhaps it also seemed to others that you began a thread rebuking people for speaking of alcohol! Please forgive me for my misjudgment, and perhaps that is why you felt "piled on," earlier. Maybe most thought that was your intention and sought to defend themselves! I believe your OP, as written on the alcohol dinner party thread, fit much better there and was not a blanket rebuke, but a comment on that--thread--and in my opinion, that makes more sense! Peace, jessi♥
 

rpavich

Puritan Board Freshman
Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
No opinion one way or another about Jesus enabling drunkenness but doesn't the fact that He points out that it's only after they've had their fill of the "good stuff" that the host would bring out the "cheap stuff" seem to indicate that after drinking for a while, they would be affected enough to not notice the switch?

In my mind, that would indicate that at least this wedding, it was understood that they would drink enough to be affected...buzzed at least.

And I'm guessing that this was a secular event? (or more exactly a "mixed" event?)

I'm NOT saying that by Jesus mentioning it that He approved of it...it's not even the point of the account, but just a detail.
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
Dear Tim,
The quote from Genesis about the Messiah is apparently a very poor translation. To say that someone's eyes were dark like wine on the other hand referred to their handsomeness, in this case the spiritual captivatingness of the Christ.

Re Cana, we don't know the strength of the wine and the passage doesn't specifically mention that anyone was drunk. I know that it would be their responsibility if they abused Jesus' wine, but since Scripture is silent on the matter, it would be wrong to go further than Scripture and even imply that He was enabling a drunken party by honest mistake, by making the wine.
KJV 12His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
Young's literal 12Red [are] eyes with wine, And white [are] teeth with milk!
If you're set on spiritualizing even sex during menses, you'll spiritualize that verse as well. Even though we know the Hebrew idea of masculine beauty was eyes darker than wine, not as dark. Wine is white or red and from the Song of Solomon we see the Beloved having black eyes.

As far as the alcohol content, we know is was normal wine, because the guests senses had been dulled to the point where they couldn't tell good wine from inferior wine. Every wine drinker reading this right now knows the people had a good buzz on. And your private definition of drunk isn't necessarily shared by others.

We know from both the OT and NT and Apocrypha and contemporary sources and common sense that the story of Cana meant exactly what it says, and it wasn't a couple beers each.
 

Wannabee

Obi Wan Kenobi
Re Cana, we don't know the strength of the wine and the passage doesn't specifically mention that anyone was drunk. I know that it would be their responsibility if they abused Jesus' wine, but since Scripture is silent on the matter, it would be wrong to go further than Scripture and even imply that He was enabling a drunken party by honest mistake, by making the wine.
Dear Richard,

I think you're failing to see the relevance in regard to the OP. First, Jesus made no "honest mistakes." He provided a blessing for the people. If they abused it then they're culpable. This helps us to better define the line where being a stumbling block lies. Jenny states that it is in using alcohol around certain people. But even in the midst of this celebration, where people had already had much wine, Jesus provided more. And we can KNOW that Jesus provided a blessing and not by mistake, regardless of whether it was abused or not.
As Tim pointed out, showing others how to be responsible in drink is probably more affective than avoidance all together. Teaching someone to resist temptation when faced with it is more affective than teaching them to simply avoid it all together, for we can never completely avoid temptations. Job made a pact with his eyes, not his feet. And repeatedly wine is set forth as a blessing throughout Scripture, regardless of its potency. Shall we call the gift of God a curse? Who was rebuked, Noah or Ham?
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Quote from Tim
If you're set on spiritualizing even sex during menses,

Not spiritualising, Tim. Just discerning that the purpose for which the law (the intent of the law) was given was ceremonial, rather than health or aesthetics or morality. Just as you yourself believe many other laws are ceremonial but aren't spiritualising them.

By the way, are Rush's second and third volumes of his "Institutes" worth getting? What's in them?

I'd be interested in reading a few comments to see what is said about the Genesis 49 verse. According to your take the Messiah's eyes are red through drinking wine heavily and His teeth have become white (whiter?) through drinking milk.

I'm not familiar with the expression "buzzed." Is it North American? Does it mean being merry with wine? There's a big difference between being merry (God makes wine to gladden the heart, Psalms 104:15; and here in Cana we have God in the flesh doing that) and being drunk.


Joe
First, Jesus made no "honest mistakes."

Is it sinful to make an honest mistake? This is for another thread. I'll maybe start one elsewhere.


Your brother in Christ,
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
I'd be interested in reading a few comments to see what is said about the Genesis 49 verse. According to your take the Messiah's eyes are red through drinking wine heavily and His teeth have become white (whiter?) through drinking milk.
You're doing it without even thinking!! The blessing was on Judah, and while there may be other applications YOU CAN'T SAY THE BLESSING ISN'T ABOUT THE PERSON THE BIBLE SAYS IT IS ABOUT.

Calvin says this

He now
speaks of the situation of the territory which fell by lot to the sons
of Judah; and intimates, that so great would be the abundance of vines
there, that they would everywhere present themselves as readily as
brambles, or unfruitful shrubs, in other places. For since asses are
wont to be bound to the hedges, he here reduces vines to this
contemptible use. The hyperbolical forms of speech which follow are to
be applied to the same purpose; namely, that Judah shall wash his
garments in wine, and his eyes be red there-with. He means that the
abundance of wine shall be so great, that it may be poured out to wash
with, like water, at no great expense; but that, by constant copious
drinking, the eyes would contract redness.
 

Wannabee

Obi Wan Kenobi
Joe
First, Jesus made no "honest mistakes."

Is it sinful to make an honest mistake? This is for another thread. I'll maybe start one elsewhere.
I don't know that a thread is needed. Did Jesus, the perfect and only begotten Son of God, God the Son, ever make one single mistake? Is this possible? If you think so then perhaps another thread would be a good idea.
 

reformedminister

Puritan Board Sophomore
There are dangers with the internet, as well as television. This is why some holiness groups ban both. It has been my experience that those who abstain from alcohol throw everyone who doesn't into the same camp, that we are all a bunch of drunkards. Drunkenness the Scripture condemns but the moderate consumption of alcohol the Scripture allows. I guess I know what Jesus felt like when he was called a winebibber. Of course, that was non-alcoholic wine he drank (unlikely). I don't want to seem too harsh or impolite, please forgive me. Just trying to prove a point.
 
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