Wokeness, essentials and seeking a church...

[Mrs. B-N]

My husband and I recently went down the rabbit hole of leftism-in-evangelicalism after the church we are attending played TGC's Night of Lament earlier this summer. I know, I know. Where have we been, right? However, I have been shocked by what I have found in my research following that airing. And also very discouraged. I never thought that we would have to ask the questions we asked our pastors at our first membership meeting. Or the answers we got. My first question was about their opinion of pastors promoting voting for pro- abortion candidates in any way? I asked this as a moral question, not a political one. I see a crisis of leadership in the evangelical church at large right now as demonstrated by the going-ons that currently are promoting the Marxist social "gospel" in the guise of "social" justice. I believe that part of the strategy to get Christians to start voting more left leaning is to first break down the barrier that any Bible believing Christian has to promoting and supporting government sanctioned murder in the form of abortion. TGC and their crowd (the reformed lite, i call them) are working hard at this. You don't have to look far. My pastor's response was that his problem was that pastors are making voting recommendations at all, not necessarily with what this one was recommending and that he personally would never say he would "never" vote prochoice. Our other pastor said something to the effect that abortion is "like slavery" and that we do have prochoice members in our church. Whatever that means. He also said that they had people leave because they didn't talk about global warming enough and we need to stick to the Gospel. As if being prolife and leading and teaching your church to be, as well, is equivalent to global warming. I think my husband and I were both so flabbergasted and surprised by their responses that we didn't press for the clarity we were seeking and didn't realize how confused we were by their responses until we talked it all over afterwards. We will need to have another discussion with them, but sadly we think mainly to tie up loose ends so that our reasons for not joining are clear to them. We have kind of had to grieve this, as we have been going here over a year, have many close relationships and thought we were in a conservative, theologically sound church and have been very surprised by what we have found out in just the last couple of months. We are new to the area and the more I do the prerequisit website research (as tasked by my husband) on area churches the more I'm saddened to find that almost all of them are recommending leftist, devisive, unbiblical resources to understand the current "racial tensions" in our country by reading books by authors like Thabiti Anyabwile, Kyle Howard, Eric Mason, Jemar Tisby, etc. I would like your thoughts on the difficulty of finding a good church that is standing for God's Word, when so many are promoting lies right now in the current political climate. Also, we would like your thoughts on allowing openly prochoice people to join the church as members.

 

[Jonathan95]

Its a shame. I left my church for the same reasons you mentioned. Idk when "we're just gonna focus on the gospel" became what it is today. It's code for an apparent left-leaning agenda. I pray the Lord will guide you to a solid congregation.

Also, "pro-choice" means that they are for the killing of the unborn. This is a moral issue and should be held accountable by church discipline. Accepting as members these individuals at the outset shows that they will not face discipline for these abhorrent views. It's wrong.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

What church and denomination is this?

My husband and I recently went down the rabbit hole of leftism-in-evangelicalism after the church we are attending played TGC's Night of Lament earlier this summer. I know, I know. Where have we been, right? However, I have been shocked by what I have found in my research following that airing. And also very discouraged. I never thought that we would have to ask the questions we asked our pastors at our first membership meeting. Or the answers we got. My first question was about their opinion of pastors promoting voting for pro- abortion candidates in any way? I asked this as a moral question, not a political one. I see a crisis of leadership in the evangelical church at large right now as demonstrated by the going-ons that currently are promoting the Marxist social "gospel" in the guise of "social" justice. I believe that part of the strategy to get Christians to start voting more left leaning is to first break down the barrier that any Bible believing Christian has to promoting and supporting government sanctioned murder in the form of abortion. TGC and their crowd (the reformed lite, i call them) are working hard at this. You don't have to look far. My pastor's response was that his problem was that pastors are making voting recommendations at all, not necessarily with what this one was recommending and that he personally would never say he would "never" vote prochoice. Our other pastor said something to the effect that abortion is "like slavery" and that we do have prochoice members in our church. Whatever that means. He also said that they had people leave because they didn't talk about global warming enough and we need to stick to the Gospel. As if being prolife and leading and teaching your church to be, as well, is equivalent to global warming. I think my husband and I were both so flabbergasted and surprised by their responses that we didn't press for the clarity we were seeking and didn't realize how confused we were by their responses until we talked it all over afterwards. We will need to have another discussion with them, but sadly we think mainly to tie up loose ends so that our reasons for not joining are clear to them. We have kind of had to grieve this, as we have been going here over a year, have many close relationships and thought we were in a conservative, theologically sound church and have been very surprised by what we have found out in just the last couple of months. We are new to the area and the more I do the prerequisit website research (as tasked by my husband) on area churches the more I'm saddened to find that almost all of them are recommending leftist, devisive, unbiblical resources to understand the current "racial tensions" in our country by reading books by authors like Thabiti Anyabwile, Kyle Howard, Eric Mason, Jemar Tisby, etc. I would like your thoughts on the difficulty of finding a good church that is standing for God's Word, when so many are promoting lies right now in the current political climate. Also, we would like your thoughts on allowing openly prochoice people to join the church as members.

 

[fredtgreco]

What church and denomination is this?

Yes. Chris' question is a good one. And where are you located? I know of good options in Michigan depending where you are.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

What church and denomination is this?

It is non-denominational Reformed . They hold to the Westminister Confession as their statement of faith. My husband and i world be Reformed Baptist in our belief.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Yes. Chris' question is a good one. And where are you located? I know of good options in Michigan depending where you are.

Ann Arbor, Jackson, Chelsea area would all be within driving distance.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Its a shame. I left my church for the same reasons you mentioned. Idk when "we're just gonna focus on the gospel" became what it is today. It's code for an apparent left-leaning agenda. I pray the Lord will guide you to a solid congregation.

Also, "pro-choice" means that they are for the killing of the unborn. This is a moral issue and should be held accountable by church discipline. Accepting as members these individuals at the outset shows that they will not face discipline for these abhorrent views. It's wrong.

Thank you, Jonathan. I agree with you on viewing a pro-abortion bellef as a sin problem. A good way of defining how they view it is as "seeker friendly". You join if "saved" and hopefully as you learn you'll grow, rather than having a confessional or biblical view of church membership in a body and what that entails.

 

[retroGRAD3]

I am so sorry to hear what has happened to you and your husband. It can be very discouraging at times. I echo Jonathan in that allowing pro choice individuals to become members is not negotiable. It is just inviting trouble and liberal theology into the church. A little leven will eventually leven the whole lump (bad in this case). Also the seeker sensitive movement is almost always associated with pragmatism. It also sounds like they say westminster, but they haven't actually read it. There is a big part on the 10 commandments that condemns murder (abortion).

Coming from a similar background, I would suggest a confessional church. OPC, PCA, or even WELS Lutheran if that is the best you can do.

I will be praying.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Thank you. Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned pragmatism. The pastors DO know the Westminister Confession. One was an OPC pastor before this plant, the other a very conservative reformed Baptist, but i think that to reach students, they are not strongly teaching on things that they ought. Basically, they hold to the Westminister Confession but you don't have to, to join. It's all quite confusing to me as I'm new to reformed churches, but things were actually much clearer when it came to joining and membership expectations in the fbc churches I grew up in.

I'm glad you mentioned " a little leaven..." as that has been our thinking, but it's easy to sometimes start to wonder if we're wrong or if our view of church membership is wrong. Speaking of which, can anyone point me towards a good resource explaining a biblical, confessional view of membership in a church?

 

[fredtgreco]

Ann Arbor, Jackson, Chelsea area would all be within driving distance.

Long drive, but I can't recommend University Reformed PCA in East Lansing.
Other options: Christ Church (Ann Arbor), Pathway Community Church (PCA - Brighton), OPC Brighton (https://www.opcbrighton.org/)

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Thanks,

Long drive, but I can't recommend University Reformed PCA in East Lansing.
Other options: Christ Church (Ann Arbor), Pathway Community Church (PCA - Brighton), OPC Brighton (https://www.opcbrighton.org/)

Thanks so much, Fred. I've looked at Christ church as it's not far from us, but am very wary due to the Tim Keller videos posted on their church website. I think the direction that Keller and TGC has gone is dangerous and shameful. It seems to be reflective of a lot of the PCA churches I've personally come across. I will check out the others.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Speaking of which, can anyone point me towards a good resource explaining a biblical, confessional view of membership in a church?

Long Response:

Short Response:

(This is more of a general response. There are some things in this video I believe they are a bit casual on, but it is a decent response at a high level)

And one more:

 

[De Jager]

Thanks,

Thanks so much, Fred. I've looked at Christ church as it's not far from us, but am very wary due to the Tim Keller videos posted on their church website. I think the direction that Keller and TGC has gone is dangerous and shameful. It seems to be reflective of a lot of the PCA churches I've personally come across. I will check out the others.

Maybe this is totally out of the question, but have you ever considered moving to the Grand Rapids area?

 

[fredtgreco]

Thanks,

Thanks so much, Fred. I've looked at Christ church as it's not far from us, but am very wary due to the Tim Keller videos posted on their church website. I think the direction that Keller and TGC has gone is dangerous and shameful. It seems to be reflective of a lot of the PCA churches I've personally come across. I will check out the others.

I don't see any Keller videos on their site. I have it on good authority that the pastor is confessional.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Maybe this is totally out of the question, but have you ever considered moving to the Grand Rapids area?

Lol. We have. Why do you ask?

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Long Response:

Short Response:

(This is more of a general response. There are some things in this video I believe they are a bit casual on, but it is a decent response at a high level)

And one more:

Excellent. Thank you!

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Thanks,

Long drive, but I can't recommend University Reformed PCA in East Lansing.
Other options: Christ Church (Ann Arbor), Pathway Community Church (PCA - Brighton), OPC Brighton (https://www.opcbrighton.org/)

Thanks so much, Fred. I've looked at Christ church as it's not far from us, but am very wary due to the Tim Keller videos posted on their church website. I think the direction that Keller and TGC has gone is dangerous and shameful. It seems to be reflective of a lot of the PCA churches I've personally come across. I will check out the others.

I don't see any Keller videos on their site. I have it on good authority that the pastor is confessional.

It's under the section- About Us, Why A New Church, I believe. The video in and of itself isn't bad, and I don't hate Tim Keller, but we are quite wary of any TGC associations. I'll let my husband know what you said.

 

[Jonathco]

Its a shame. I left my church for the same reasons you mentioned. Idk when "we're just gonna focus on the gospel" became what it is today. .

This was a big driver in my family and I leaving the church we did early this year. Every Sunday was a salvation call with spontaneous baptisms, and the main goal of the church became evangelism at any cost. Discipleship, equipping the saints for the work of ministry, shepherding, and church discipline were (at best) faded concepts within the body. The finals straws for us were when formal church membership was blatantly preached against and "no creed but Christ" was used from the pulpit to dismiss seminaries collectively, as well as any doctrinal/theology book except scripture.

Long drive, but I can't recommend University Reformed PCA in East Lansing
Other options: Christ Church (Ann Arbor), Pathway Community Church (PCA - Brighton), OPC Brighton (https://www.opcbrighton.org/)

I can second Brighton OPC; most of my wife's family attend there and it's a solid church. Pastor Doll is a gifted preacher, and if they only used more water in their baptism, my wife and I may have ended up there. Joking aside, it's a wonderful congregation and I have no doubt they would welcome Reformed Baptists with no conflict.

Lol. We have. Why do you ask?

I mean, if you are Reformed and live in Michigan, who hasn't considered moving to GR?

 

[Edward]

but am very wary due to the Tim Keller videos posted on their church website.

There are many of us here that have long held concerns about Keller, and discernment is certainly needed when dealing with his work, but he isn't inherently evil and one shouldn't reject everything that he touches.

Sort of like the PCA as a whole - lots of OK, some really, really good, and some bad. (In the case of the PCA, some really, really bad.)

 

[De Jager]

Lol. We have. Why do you ask?

There are a plethora of solid reformed churches to choose from the greater GR area.

 

[Jonathco]

There are a plethora of solid reformed churches to choose from the greater GR area.

Absolutely, plus Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary is there, the local food scene is fantastic, the economy is better there than anywhere else in the state, and Lake Michigan's beaches are close by.

 

[Romans922]

My husband and I recently went down the rabbit hole of leftism-in-evangelicalism after the church we are attending played TGC's Night of Lament earlier this summer. I know, I know. Where have we been, right? However, I have been shocked by what I have found in my research following that airing. And also very discouraged. I never thought that we would have to ask the questions we asked our pastors at our first membership meeting. Or the answers we got. My first question was about their opinion of pastors promoting voting for pro- abortion candidates in any way? I asked this as a moral question, not a political one. I see a crisis of leadership in the evangelical church at large right now as demonstrated by the going-ons that currently are promoting the Marxist social "gospel" in the guise of "social" justice. I believe that part of the strategy to get Christians to start voting more left leaning is to first break down the barrier that any Bible believing Christian has to promoting and supporting government sanctioned murder in the form of abortion. TGC and their crowd (the reformed lite, i call them) are working hard at this. You don't have to look far. My pastor's response was that his problem was that pastors are making voting recommendations at all, not necessarily with what this one was recommending and that he personally would never say he would "never" vote prochoice. Our other pastor said something to the effect that abortion is "like slavery" and that we do have prochoice members in our church. Whatever that means. He also said that they had people leave because they didn't talk about global warming enough and we need to stick to the Gospel. As if being prolife and leading and teaching your church to be, as well, is equivalent to global warming. I think my husband and I were both so flabbergasted and surprised by their responses that we didn't press for the clarity we were seeking and didn't realize how confused we were by their responses until we talked it all over afterwards. We will need to have another discussion with them, but sadly we think mainly to tie up loose ends so that our reasons for not joining are clear to them. We have kind of had to grieve this, as we have been going here over a year, have many close relationships and thought we were in a conservative, theologically sound church and have been very surprised by what we have found out in just the last couple of months. We are new to the area and the more I do the prerequisit website research (as tasked by my husband) on area churches the more I'm saddened to find that almost all of them are recommending leftist, devisive, unbiblical resources to understand the current "racial tensions" in our country by reading books by authors like Thabiti Anyabwile, Kyle Howard, Eric Mason, Jemar Tisby, etc. I would like your thoughts on the difficulty of finding a good church that is standing for God's Word, when so many are promoting lies right now in the current political climate. Also, we would like your thoughts on allowing openly prochoice people to join the church as members.

Since everyone is recommending churches, I am wholly surprised no one recommended a fellow RPCNA church in Detroit suburbs. http://reformed.com/

You will find no Tim Keller, TGC, etc. from this church. Consistent reformed gospel preaching in worship and to the community. Let me know if you need help contacting the Pastor. So no reason to move just for a church, there are churches near you.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Since everyone is recommending churches, I am wholly surprised no one recommended a fellow RPCNA church in Detroit suburbs. http://reformed.com/

You will find no Tim Keller, TGC, etc. from this church. Consistent reformed gospel preaching in worship and to the community. Let me know if you need help contacting the Pastor. So no reason to move just for a church, there are churches near you.

Mrs. B-N, you should visit there.

 

[Jonathan95]

Mrs. B-N, you should visit there.

I agree!!

 

[Regi Addictissimus]

Lol. We have. Why do you ask?

We would love to have you here in Grand Rapids. You certainly would not be without options in this area. From my understanding, we have the most Reformed congregations in the nation. Plus, you would be within driving distance to the best Reformed bookstore in the country.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

the best Reformed bookstore in the country.

This New Zealander would add it is his favourite bookstore I equally love Banner of Truth although they are not a bookstore as such.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Thanks for the recommendations everyone! We are encouraged.

 

[Silas22]

I echo Jonathan in that allowing pro choice individuals to become members is not negotiable. It is just inviting trouble and liberal theology into the church. A little leven will eventually leven the whole lump

How would a minister go about addressing this without ripping the church apart? I grew up in the "blue dog" south were most poor people (farmers) voted democrat.

 

[retroGRAD3]

How would a minister go about addressing this without ripping the church apart? I grew up in the "blue dog" south were most poor people (farmers) voted democrat.

Abortion is a good issue to rip a church apart for. If people are pro-choice, they are almost assuredly pagans. Easy way to do this though would be to be confessional. If someone wants to become a member and they are pro-choice, say no.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

It's been a very long time since I was in a new members class, but do OPC or PCA etc. churches typically bring up the sin of abortion in new members classes, whether or not intentionally to weed out those not opposed to abortion? I don't know the answer. This may be worth a new topic thread.

Abortion is a good issue to rip a church apart for. If people are pro-choice, they are almost assuredly pagans. Easy way to do this though would be to be confessional. If someone wants to become a member and they are pro-choice, say no.