Wokeness, essentials and seeking a church...

[retroGRAD3]

It's been a very long time since I was in a new members class, but do OPC or PCA etc. churches typically bring up the sin of abortion in new members classes, whether or not intentionally to weed out those not opposed to abortion? I don't know the answer. This may be worth a new topic thread.

This is a good question. I believe historically it is just assumed Christians are pro-life, thou shall not murder (which is part of confession). I suppose these days more and more people though do not equate those things. They instead believe that abortion is not murder.

 

[Poimen]

Since everyone is recommending churches, I am wholly surprised no one recommended a fellow RPCNA church in Detroit suburbs. http://reformed.com/

You will find no Tim Keller, TGC, etc. from this church. Consistent reformed gospel preaching in worship and to the community. Let me know if you need help contacting the Pastor. So no reason to move just for a church, there are churches near you.

I would second that recommendation but might I also add that there is a Free Church of Scotland in Livonia, MI which may be closer to you. They look very solid and would be similar to the RPCNA congregation:

Presbyterian Free Church of Livonia

 

[nick]

Praise God he has opened your eyes. Be patient with those still blinded by these teachings. I believe it was Spurgeon who said something along the lines of “discernment is not being able to tell the difference between right and wrong, but right and almost right.”


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[TomVols]

There are many of us here that have long held concerns about Keller, and discernment is certainly needed when dealing with his work, but he isn't inherently evil and one shouldn't reject everything that he touches.

Sort of like the PCA as a whole - lots of OK, some really, really good, and some bad. (In the case of the PCA, some really, really bad.)

Thank you for this. I can't say I'd endorse every single thing that Tim Keller has ever allegedly said or allegedly done or allegedly allowed at his church. But the haste some people have to call him a liberal heretic is very troubling.

 

[Mrs. B-N]

Thank you for this. I can't say I'd endorse every single thing that Tim Keller has ever allegedly said or allegedly done or allegedly allowed at his church. But the haste some people have to call him a liberal heretic is very troubling.

Our concerns are certainly not having to do with anything "alleged" and should be of concern to all who claim Christ inspite of the fact that Tim Keller is popular. TGC can be read for free on the internet. The political liberalism that is being promoted in the name of Christ is appalling. Articles promoting voting for candidates who promote murdering babies; the destruction of people and gender in God's creation in promoting transgenderism; and the promotion of critical race theory subtly in the presuppositions and language used in articles and spoken by TGC writers, members, etc. This is Tim's organization. Also, Tim is a board member of the &(and)Campaign) (or was. His picture recently disappeared from the website) along with several other TGC Pastors and affiliates. This is a far left action organization created by Obama's Michael Wear that's chief purpose is to usher a more palatable leftism to evangelicalism in order to move votes from those who normally vote conservative because of moral issues to the Democratic party. It's goal is to do this INSPITE of the democratic party's platform which is totally antithetical to God's Word, Christianity and consequently our culture and nation. I'm more troubled by the lack of concern much of the reformed community has about TGC and Keller its leader, than I am about people calling Keller a heretic.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I saw the twitter feed on Facebook of Tim Keller's defending voting for the demoncratic [typo but it seems fitting to leave it) party as our liberty of conscience and that the issue isn't that abortion isn't a sin but what to do about it or how to go about addressing it and if we think the Dems help the poor better, then that makes it okay (I'm paraphrasing from what seemed to be his reasoning so For what it's worth). How is voting for a party that is committed to doing nothing about diminishing or removing abortion but rather pushing the limits to unlimited and infanticide doing something against the practice but rather for it? Don't vote or vote some third party but actually to vote for the Democrats? Sorry; not liberty of conscience but liberty to sin by actively endorsing and putting the party in power that wants more death and more of what is right now at least partly bearing the fruit of God's judgment on this country.

 

[retroGRAD3]

@Mrs. B-N how has the church search been going?

 

[LadyCalvinist]

Chris Coldwell, in answer to your your question of whether OPC and PCA churches admit those who are Pro-choice to membership, the answer is yes because when I joined the PCA I was still pro-choice; no one asked me if I was pro-life. Sometime after I joined, my pastor did preach a pro-life sermon. I just sat there and quietly ignored it. Four years after I became a member I went to a conference where one of the vendors had a booth full of pro-life materials. I picked up one of them and saw pictures of dismembered fetuses and at that moment I became pro-life. I am now involved with a pro-life committee at my church.

 

[ZackF]

Chris Coldwell, in answer to your your question of whether OPC and PCA churches admit those who are Pro-choice to membership, the answer is yes because when I joined the PCA I was still pro-choice; no one asked me if I was pro-life. Sometime after I joined, my pastor did preach a pro-life sermon. I just sat there and quietly ignored it. Four years after I became a member I went to a conference where one of the vendors had a booth full of pro-life materials. I picked up one of them and saw pictures of dismembered fetuses and at that moment I became pro-life. I am now involved with a pro-life committee at my church.

Asking about beliefs in the form of political positions when interviewed for church membership is new to me. That wasn’t asked of me either.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Asking about beliefs in the form of political positions when interviewed for church membership is new to me. That wasn’t asked of me either.

Is being against the murder of children a political position though? Maybe a better way to frame is, is it solely a political position? I believe it is a theological position that has been pushed into politics.

 

[ZackF]

Is being against the murder of children a political position though? Maybe a better way to frame is, is it solely a political position. I believe it is a theology position that has been pushed into politics.

Yes. This a good description.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

I wasn't asking from the standpoint of a political question, but of the sin of abortion. That has ramifications on one's politics, etc., but making clear the PCA, for instance, is clearly pro life on the morality issue would strike me as something good to make clear in a new members class. They should go through the catechism In my humble opinion in a new members class and that would certainly come up under the sixth commandment.

It's been a very long time since I was in a new members class, but do OPC or PCA etc. churches typically bring up the sin of abortion in new members classes, whether or not intentionally to weed out those not opposed to abortion? I don't know the answer. This may be worth a new topic thread.

Asking about beliefs in the form of political positions when interviewed for church membership is new to me. That wasn’t asked of me either.

Is being against the murder of children a political position though? Maybe a better way to frame is, is it solely a political position. I believe it is a theology position that has been pushed into politics.

 

[LadyCalvinist]

Chris, I agree with you.

 

[EcclesiaDiscens.]

I wasn't asking from the standpoint of a political question, but of the sin of abortion. That has ramifications on one's politics, etc., but making clear the PCA, for instance, is clearly pro life on the morality issue would strike me as something good to make clear in a new members class. They should go through the catechism In my humble opinion in a new members class and that would certainly come up under the sixth commandment.

I agree. The abortion issue has been painted as a political issue in the PCA when it’s clearly a 6th Commandment issue. When a Church Elder of the PCA runs for office on a “Pro-Choice” platform in Texas and essentially flees discipline by resigning, there should’ve been a radical re-orientation of how the issue is addressed.

 

[Edward]

They should go through the catechism In my humble opinion in a new members class

For that matter, they should go through the catechism in officer training. But they would probably get hung up on keeping the Sabbath (if they could make it past graven images) and never get to the Second Table.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Also, Tim is a board member of the &(and)Campaign) (or was. His picture recently disappeared from the website) along with several other TGC Pastors and affiliates

I followed the &Campaign on facebook at the endorsement of some musician back when I had such a thing, and for the life of me I don't know why I never unfollowed it, but a large portion of their posts were something along the lines of "we want candidates who are pro-life AND believe black lives matter", the BLM part being primarily focused on police reform and not some of the more marxist objectives of secular BLM folks. Now like them or not, I don't think it's reasonable to call any outwardly pro-life group far-left, given that leftists of all stripes seem to be quite dogmatically pro-abortion. And I say that having no sympathies for Keller's overall program of wokeness.

 

[retroGRAD3]

A bit dramatic, but his take on Keller's latest is pretty spot on

I do think Keller is a false teacher at this point. He has been living in New York too long and it is really starting to affect him.