Women can't be pastors, etc, but what about all of these others roles?

[Pergamum]

Interact act.

“Okay, I agree with you that only men should be pastors and elders. But what about other activities in the church? Can they teach adult Sunday school classes? What about serving communion? We want to follow Scripture, but we can’t find any verses that talk about these specific things.”




Below is a list compiled by Wayne Grudem. Please tell me what roles are yes or no for women to take part in:



List 1: Areas of governing authority

WHICH OFFICES OR ACTIVITIES SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN? (listed in order of greatest to least amount of authority over men)

GOVERNING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN:
1. President of a denomination
2. Member of the governing board of a denomination
3. Regional governing authority (such as district superintendent, bishop, or similar office)
4. Member of regional governing board
5. Senior pastor in local church (or associate pastor with many similar responsibilities to the senior pastor)
6. Member of governing board with authority over whole church (this would be the office of elder in many churches, while it would be the office of deacon or board member or church council member in others)
7. Presiding over a baptism or communion service (but see List 3 for serving communion or performing a baptism)
8. Giving spoken judgment on a prophecy given to the congregation (1 Corinthians 14:33–36)
9. Permanent leader of a fellowship group meeting in a home (both men and women members)

GOVERNING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN:
10. Committee chairman (or chairperson)
11. Director of Christian education
12. Sunday school superintendent
13. Missionary responsibilities (many administrative responsibilities in missionary work in other countries)
14. Moderating a Bible discussion in a home Bible study group
15. Choir director
16. Leading singing on Sunday morning
17. Deacon (in churches where this does not involve governing authority over the entire congregation)
18. Administrative assistant to senior pastor
19. Church treasurer
20. Church secretary
21. Member of advisory council to regional governing authority
22. Meeting periodically with church governing board to give counsel and advice
23. Regular conversations between elders and their wives over matters
coming before the elder board (with understanding that confidentiality is preserved)
24. Formally counseling one man
25. Formally counseling a couple together
26. Formally counseling one woman
27. Speaking in congregational business meetings
28. Voting in congregational business meetings

List 2: Areas of Bible teaching

WHICH ACTIVITIES SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN? (listed in order of greatest to least teaching influence over men in a group or congregation)

TEACHING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN:
1. Teaching Bible or theology in a theological seminary
2. Teaching Bible or theology in a Christian college
3. Preaching (teaching the Bible) at a nationwide denominational
meeting or at a nationwide Christian conference
4. Preaching (teaching the Bible) at a regional meeting of churches or at a regional Christian conference
5. Preaching (teaching the Bible) regularly to the whole church on Sunday mornings
6. Occasional preaching (teaching the Bible) to the whole church on Sunday mornings
7. Occasional Bible teaching at less formal meetings of the whole church (such as Sunday evening or at a midweek service)
8. Bible teaching to an adult Sunday school class (both men and women members)
9. Bible teaching at a home Bible study (both men and women
members)
10. Bible teaching to a college-age Sunday school class

TEACHING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN:
11. Bible teaching to a high school Sunday school class
12. Writing a book on Bible doctrines
13. Writing or editing a study Bible
14. Writing a commentary on a book of the Bible
IS. Writing notes in a study Bible
16. Writing or editing other kinds of Christian books
17. Bible teaching to a women’s Sunday school class
18. Bible teaching to a women’s Bible study group during the week
19. Bible teaching to a junior high Sunday school class
20. Teaching as a Bible professor on a secular university campus
21. Evangelistic speaking to large groups of non-Christians (for example,
an evangelistic rally on a college campus)
22. Working as an evangelistic missionary in other cultures
23. Moderating a discussion in a small group Bible study (men and
women members)
24. Reading Scripture aloud on Sunday morning
25. Reading Scripture to other, less formal meetings of the church
26. Giving a personal testimony before the congregation (a story of how God has worked in one’s own or others’ lives)
27. Participating in a discussion in a home Bible study (men and women
members)
28. Formally counseling one man
29. Formally counseling a married couple
30. Formally counseling a woman
31. Teaching children’s Sunday school class
32. Teaching Vacation Bible School
33. Singing a solo on Sunday morning (this is a form of teaching, since the lyrics often have biblical content and exhortation)
34. Singing to the congregation as a member of the choir
35. Singing hymns with the congregation (in this activity, sometimes we teach and exhort one another in some sense, see Colossians 3:16)

List 3: Areas of public visibility or recognition

WHICH ACTIVITIES SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN? (listed in order of greatest to least public visibility or recognition in a local congregation)

PUBLIC RECOGNITION THAT SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN:
1. Ordination as pastor (member of the clergy) in a denomination
PUBLIC RECOGNITION THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN:
2. Being licensed to perform some ministerial functions within a denomination
3. Paid member of pastoral staff (such as youth worker, music director, counselor, Christian education director)
4. Paid member of administrative church staff (church secretary or treasurer, for example)
5. Performing a baptism (in churches where this is not exclusively the role of clergy or elders)
6. Helping to serve the Lord’s Supper (in churches where this is not exclusively the role of clergy or elders)
7. Giving announcements at the Sunday morning service
8. Taking the offering
9. Public reading of Scripture
10. Public prayer
11. Prophesying in public (according to 1 Corinthians 1:5 and 14:29, where this is not understood as having authority equal to Scripture or Bible reaching)
12. Singing a solo on Sunday mornings
13. Giving a personal testimony in church
14. Giving a prayer request in church
15. Being a member of a prayer team that prays for people individually after the service
16. Welcoming people at the door (a greeter)
17. Editing the church newsletter
18. Singing in the choir
19. Singing of hymns with the congregation on Sunday morning
20. Participating in the responsive reading of Scripture on Sunday morning

 

[Scott1]

Wow, that is quite a list!


Biblically, we have a clear case for men only in the following:

Elder (ruling or teaching)
Deacon
Evangelist
Any other office or title, by whatever name, doing substantially the same thing (E.g. a Pastor is an Elder, a board of trustees is like the Ruling Elders, etc.)

Ordinarily, men should lead men's ministries and "mixed" (male and female) ministries. Women need to be fully involved in support capacities in all these and may, in extraordinary circumstances, even lead in these as long as there is an intention to restore the biblical order as circumstances permit.

It's less clear to me in a para-church situation, but I think the same principle applies- ordinarily men in leadership, women fully involved in support capacities.

(This actually works well in practice).

 

[Leslie]

Wow, that is quite a list!


Biblically, we have a clear case for men only in the following:

Elder (ruling or teaching)
Deacon
Evangelist
Any other office or title, by whatever name, doing substantially the same thing (E.g. a Pastor is an Elder, a board of trustees is like the Ruling Elders, etc.)

Ordinarily, men should lead men's ministries and "mixed" (male and female) ministries. Women need to be fully involved in support capacities in all these and may, in extraordinary circumstances, even lead in these as long as there is an intention to restore the biblical order as circumstances permit.

It's less clear to me in a para-church situation, but I think the same principle applies- ordinarily men in leadership, women fully involved in support capacities.

(This actually works well in practice).

Are Bible Schools or theological seminaries parachurch organizations or church organizations or can they be either, depending on the constitution?

 

[Scott1]

Wow, that is quite a list!


Biblically, we have a clear case for men only in the following:

Elder (ruling or teaching)
Deacon
Evangelist
Any other office or title, by whatever name, doing substantially the same thing (E.g. a Pastor is an Elder, a board of trustees is like the Ruling Elders, etc.)

Ordinarily, men should lead men's ministries and "mixed" (male and female) ministries. Women need to be fully involved in support capacities in all these and may, in extraordinary circumstances, even lead in these as long as there is an intention to restore the biblical order as circumstances permit.

It's less clear to me in a para-church situation, but I think the same principle applies- ordinarily men in leadership, women fully involved in support capacities.

(This actually works well in practice).

Are Bible Schools or theological seminaries parachurch organizations or church organizations or can they be either, depending on the constitution?

Not "churches" by biblical definition. That is not to say they cannot be controlled by a church denomination with their authority as oversight.

 

[Kevin]

Wow, that is quite a list!


Biblically, we have a clear case for men only in the following:

Elder (ruling or teaching)
Deacon
Evangelist
Any other office or title, by whatever name, doing substantially the same thing (E.g. a Pastor is an Elder, a board of trustees is like the Ruling Elders, etc.)

Ordinarily, men should lead men's ministries and "mixed" (male and female) ministries. Women need to be fully involved in support capacities in all these and may, in extraordinary circumstances, even lead in these as long as there is an intention to restore the biblical order as circumstances permit.

It's less clear to me in a para-church situation, but I think the same principle applies- ordinarily men in leadership, women fully involved in support capacities.

(This actually works well in practice).

Scot, you may have noticed that there has been a fair bit of debate about number 2 on your list

 

[charliejunfan]

What about women teaching regular classes in a college setting? I think that this would undermine the headship of her husband, she would be under a man that is not her husband teaching men, it would divide the unity of the household and her husband as her leader. Out of the Governments of household, church, and government(colleges etc.) woman are to stay under their husbands authority within the household and church, I think only if her husband were her leader in say, teaching a college course, could she do it. Otherwise she is under a different governing head than her husband and I don't think that is biblical. At least I thought this is how the Puritans and the like understood it.

 

[Ivan]

I have problems with a number of the entries on the list but this is the one I have the greatest difficulty with: Formally counseling one man, which is listed under what a man or a woman can do.

Depending on the setting, I suppose, it might be able to be done, but my policy is that I will not counsel a woman alone and I wouldn't advise a woman counselor to counsel a man alone.

 

[Kevin]

I have problems with a number of the entries on the list but this is the one I have the greatest difficulty with: Formally counseling one man, which is listed under what a man or a woman can do.

Depending on the setting, I suppose, it might be able to be done, but my policy is that I will not counsel a woman alone and I wouldn't advise a woman counselor to counsel a man alone.

 

[Leslie]

The scriptures make it clear that a woman must be submissive in the home and in the church. The home is well defined. The boundaries of the church definition are a bit fluid, open for discussion. A college classroom is neither home nor church. Hence the scriptures are silent on the subject of women teaching in college as regards secular subjects and possibly Bible also. They are not silent on the issue of women in government since Deborah was a legitimate judge in Israel. Condolezza Rice has a legitimate place in government affairs; the scriptures permit it. They are also not silent on women in business and commerce per Proverbs 31. They are also not silent on women traveling with men other than their husbands in missions endeavors--per the example of the women who followed Jesus. They functioned under the authority of Jesus and the disciples. Among them was Suzanna, the wife of Herod's steward who presumably left her husband to fend for himself while she went running off with 13 men and a couple other women. Jesus accepted her discipleship.

If we should not add to the scriptures as far as the RPW is concerned, how can we countenance making the scriptures more restrictive than they are on gender roles? What is a woman to do, having an advanced degree, hating housework and cooking, loving children in small doses only? Why can she not hire a nanny and promote the kingdom of God in a Christian college? Where does it say that a woman's authority must be either her husband or her father? That's mere cultural baggage.

What about women teaching regular classes in a college setting? I think that this would undermine the headship of her husband, she would be under a man that is not her husband teaching men, it would divide the unity of the household and her husband as her leader. Out of the Governments of household, church, and government(colleges etc.) woman are to stay under their husbands authority within the household and church, I think only if her husband were her leader in say, teaching a college course, could she do it. Otherwise she is under a different governing head than her husband and I don't think that is biblical. At least I thought this is how the Puritans and the like understood it.

 

[Pergamum]

The Proverbs 31 woman considers a field and buys it and seems to do a lot of business andmake many decisions on her own. Considering that that period of time had slaves and servants, it seems that women can be a boss over employees. The NT prohibits women from ecclesiastical authority in the church. Teaching a course in a college does not usurp that authority.

 

[Zenas]

Why can she not hire a nanny and promote the kingdom of God in a Christian college? Where does it say that a woman's authority must be either her husband or her father? That's mere cultural baggage.

1. She would be ignoring her responsibilities as a mother.

2. A woman's head is her husband just as the Church's head is Christ. This is a specific analogy which implies a woman only has one leader. If it can be illustrated that the church is allowed more than one leader, then you have a case for a wife having more than one leader; one allows the other. As it stands, there is no case for this that isn't blasphemy against the Scriptures.

 

[Pergamum]

1. you are assuming that any amount of nanny usage is thus ignoring her responsibilities as a mother.

Most PBers probably get an occasional babysitter so that hubby and wifey can have a date night or mom can have a break. Is a mother thus forsaking her role if there is use of a nanny once ever week for instance?

Scenario: Mother with a degree teaches one 4-hour night class at a local college every wednesday night. Real scenario. She claims to be Christian. Her home is well managed.




I agree with the principle that women must be in charge of the home. I am against blanket statements of what constitutes dereliction of this duty though.

 

[Kevin]

Why can she not hire a nanny and promote the kingdom of God in a Christian college? Where does it say that a woman's authority must be either her husband or her father? That's mere cultural baggage.

1. She would be ignoring her responsibilities as a mother.

2. A woman's head is her husband just as the Church's head is Christ. This is a specific analogy which implies a woman only has one leader. If it can be illustrated that the church is allowed more than one leader, then you have a case for a wife having more than one leader; one allows the other. As it stands, there is no case for this that isn't blasphemy against the Scriptures.

Spoken like a single man with no kids.

 

[Zenas]

1. you are assuming that any amount of nanny usage is thus ignoring her responsibilities as a mother.

Most PBers probably get an occasional babysitter so that hubby and wifey can have a date night or mom can have a break. Is a mother thus forsaking her role if there is use of a nanny once ever week for instance?

Scenario: Mother with a degree teaches one 4-hour night class at a local college every wednesday night. Real scenario. She claims to be Christian. Her home is well managed.




I agree with the principle that women must be in charge of the home. I am against blanket statements of what constitutes dereliction of this duty though.

The quote seems to imply a situation other than the one you described. I'm not stepping on eggshells to try and account for every hypothetical one can surmise. If the questions talks about small, round, red fruit, I'm going to talk about tomatoes regardless of the existence of, real or imagined, other fruit bearing the same resemblance.

If you would like to talk about the implications of the hypothetical you described, then ask about it instead of implying I'm throwing around blanket statements in an unwarranted manner. The original hypothetical was a fairly vague and broad one which got a broad answer. It did not contemplate the highly specified situation you seem to accuse me of overlooking and which, I did not in fact overlook.

You can't miss something that isn't there.

 

[Pergamum]

ZENAS:

You overspeak: As it stands, there is no case for this that isn't blasphemy against the Scriptures.


Stepping on eggshells is different than exercizing wisdom and recognizing that all area do not fit into black and white categories.

 

[Zenas]

<-- That's me.

One of the points I am trying to get across is that it's not over speaking, i.e. a generalization, if what you're speaking about is itself a broad generalization. Indeed, for the very broad, generalized hypothetical, there is no case from Scripture to make it kosher; rather you have to particularize the hypothetical (completely change it) in order to get a different outcome. I'm not responsible for highly particularized hypotheticals that you twist from a general one.

 

[Pergamum]

Is my highly particularized hypothetical "blasphemy" or not?

 

[Zenas]

The hypothetical itself isn't blasphemy and I wouldn't see a case from Scripture as condemning it due to the careful precautions taken to ensure that her home is not neglected. One night a week is a much different situation than a mother who puts her children in child-care every day.

 

[smhbbag]

GOVERNING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN:
10. Committee chairman (or chairperson)
11. Director of Christian education
12. Sunday school superintendent
13. Missionary responsibilities (many administrative responsibilities in missionary work in other countries)
14. Moderating a Bible discussion in a home Bible study group
15. Choir director
16. Leading singing on Sunday morning
17. Deacon (in churches where this does not involve governing authority over the entire congregation)
18. Administrative assistant to senior pastor
19. Church treasurer
20. Church secretary
21. Member of advisory council to regional governing authority
22. Meeting periodically with church governing board to give counsel and advice
23. Regular conversations between elders and their wives over matters
coming before the elder board (with understanding that confidentiality is preserved)
24. Formally counseling one man
25. Formally counseling a couple together
26. Formally counseling one woman
27. Speaking in congregational business meetings
28. Voting in congregational business meetings

I can see, at a stretch, maybe 4 of these (13,18,20, 23). It boggles my mind that the same man who joined with Piper to write the wonderful and lengthy book on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is putting this forth.

 

[Scott1]

I'm not completely confident I have all these correct biblically, but here is my initial reaction to the first half of Mr Grudem's list. My differences (items re-categorized or new ones added) are in bold.

List 1: Areas of governing authority

WHICH OFFICES OR ACTIVITIES SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN?

GOVERNING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO MEN:
1. President of a denomination
2. Member of the governing board of a denomination
3. Regional governing authority (such as district superintendent, bishop, or similar office)
4. Member of regional governing board
5. Senior pastor in local church (or associate pastor with many similar responsibilities to the senior pastor)
6. Member of governing board with authority over whole church (this would be the office of elder in many churches, while it would be the office of deacon or board member or church council member in others)
7. Presiding over a baptism or communion service (but see List 3 for serving communion or performing a baptism)
8. Giving spoken judgment on a prophecy given to the congregation (1 Corinthians 14:33–36)
9. Permanent leader of a fellowship group meeting in a home (both men and women members)
10. I Timothy 3 office of Deacon.
11. Church based counselor of men or mixed men and women
---- (this may be a fit task for Deacons)

WHICH OFFICES ARE RESTRICTED TO WOMEN ONLY:
1. I Timothy 5:9 servant widow

ORDINARILY, MEN SHOULD FILL THE FOLLOWING POSITIONS, BUT WOMEN MAY IN EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES ACT IN THESE CAPACITIES

10. Committee chairman (or chairperson)
11. Director of Christian education
12. Sunday school superintendent
14. Moderating a Bible discussion in a home Bible study group
15. Choir director of adults
---- (provided no exhortation or Scripture reading during public worship)
16. Leading singing on Sunday morning
---- (provided no exhortation or Scripture reading during public worship)


GOVERNING ACTIVITIES THAT SHOULD BE OPEN TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN:

15. Choir Director (of children)
---- (provided no exhortation or Scripture reading during public worship)
16. Support roles in Bible translation
17. Missionary responsibilities (many administrative responsibilities in missionary work in other countries)
18. Administrative assistant to senior pastor
19. Church treasurer
20. Church secretary
21. Member of advisory council to regional governing authority
22. Meeting periodically with church governing board to give counsel and advice
23. Regular conversations between elders and their wives over matters
coming before the elder board (with understanding that confidentiality is preserved)
24.Church based counselor of women (man counselor advisable to have a woman present)
27. Speaking in congregational business meetings
28. Voting in congregational business meetings

 

[shackleton]

I just found out something strange the other day that I did not know, the RPCNA ordains women as deacons.

 

[Scott1]

I just found out something strange the other day that I did not know, the RPCNA ordains women as deacons.

Brian Schwertly did a well researched paper on how that happened and on the topic generally.

He explains the understandable confusion on this, and how the I Timothy 3 Office of Deacon is given to men only, according to Scripture, as is the office of Elder:
Women Deacon's

 

[Leslie]

A woman is not necessarily giving up responsibilities as a mother. I went to medical school during my youngest's grades 1-4 grammar school and managed the house besides. It wasn't fun but it could be done. My husband didn't help but the kids did. We hired no outside help either, though my parents came to babysit if the kids were sick and I had to attend class. During residency they went along with me on rounds on the weekends or else came along and did coloring in the nurse's station. When I was working, it was night shift so I was there for them for breakfast and supper times--slept during their school hours. They both grew up believers and have never expressed any resentment. During their preschool years I was an emotional basket-case, imprisoned, hateful, and with the marriage ready to break up. Going to medical school was the salvation of our marriage--it's been 46 years now. My husband was dubious about my going but he paid my entire tuition after the first semester, he was so thrilled with with the change for the better in my demeanor. Now he thinks it was the best idea he ever had to send me.

Why can she not hire a nanny and promote the kingdom of God in a Christian college? Where does it say that a woman's authority must be either her husband or her father? That's mere cultural baggage.

1. She would be ignoring her responsibilities as a mother.

2. A woman's head is her husband just as the Church's head is Christ. This is a specific analogy which implies a woman only has one leader. If it can be illustrated that the church is allowed more than one leader, then you have a case for a wife having more than one leader; one allows the other. As it stands, there is no case for this that isn't blasphemy against the Scriptures.