Women Open-Air Preaching -Authority over Men?

[swilson]

I would like to get your impressions. If a woman open-air preaches the gospel to a group of people that include men, is she violating I Timothy 2, in regards to women not having authority over men?

 

[TimV]

Any reason you skipped the word teach from the passage?

 

[Herald]

Ed, is she in violation? Yes. Why? Preaching is a function of duly ordained and trained men. Preaching includes teaching the word of God. The two cannot be separated.

 

[toddpedlar]

I would like to get your impressions. If a woman open-air preaches the gospel to a group of people that include men, is she violating I Timothy 2, in regards to women not having authority over men?

What does "open-air" have to do with it? The answer is still the same.

 

[Jared]

I have wondered this too. What's the difference between a woman who has a larger audience and the woman at the well who went and told all the people in her village? Or a woman who shares the gospel with male co-workers? I won't believe that a woman whould teach men or have authority over men, but I am not sure when it comes to this issue. I think that it is usually not needful since there are men who fill this role. But what about a woman who steps up and shares the gospel in a place where men are not willing to do so? Surely the cause of the gospel would be more important than upholding the normal standard of gender roles in this instance.

 

[toddpedlar]

First, sharing the gospel (one on one) is no sin by anyone. But that's not what we're talking about here. The question was asked concerning "open air preaching" - which I assume means taking on a mantle of authority to preach the Word. Gospel-sharing isn't quite what I had in mind when I read the OP.

So, if a woman is frustrated that Christ isn't being shared, she's certainly free to share the Gospel - but can she take it upon herself to stand in the place of a preacher in the open air? Assuming you believe that a woman taking on such a role is contrary to Scripture, then I ask - is it EVER ok to disobey God, for whatever "good" end you have in mind? Surely this isn't that hard to answer.

 

[larryjf]

How about open-air exhorting....or open-air proclaiming of the Gospel.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

So it's a sin for a woman to tell an unsaved man to repent and believe the gospel?

Edit: And what about Christian women missionaries?

 

[charliejunfan]

Ideally=men
special cases=women that's what i think anyways

 

[swilson]

It is amazing to me, how on this site, very few people can respond with an answer...everyone seems to like to respond to a question with a didactic question.

I do not believe that a woman sharing the gospel one-on-one is wrong, but I am not sure what I think about a woman standing and preaching to a crowd. If I had an opinion, I wouldn't have bothered to ask your thoughts.

My question is this: is a woman open-airing to a crowd, in a position of authority, as Paul spoke to Timothy about in I Tim 2?

By the way, I completely reject the argument that the woman at the well telling the people in her town, "Come meet a man who told me all that I've done" - is the same as preaching/teaching the gospel...to me, it is absurd to even bring that circumstance into the discussion...she did not preach repentence and faith, or teach the word of God, she simply told people what happened in her conversation with him.

And in regard to me leaving out the word teach...no, there was no reason, no, sly, underhanded reason for leaving the word "teach" out - but thanks for answering my question.

Steve

 

[TimV]

And in regard to me leaving out the word teach...no, there was no reason, no, sly, underhanded reason for leaving the word "teach" out - but thanks for answering my question.

I needed to know that before I asked the second question before I tried to answer you. Sometimes if a question is too general it can't be answered responsibly, right? If I ask you "Will my well run out of water?" and you know nothing of my situation what will answer me?

The second question is, given your hypothetical question, is the woman in your example teaching? I promise I'll give a direct answer to your original question if you answer me this one last diagnostic question.

 

[Tim]

So it's a sin for a woman to tell an unsaved man to repent and believe the gospel?

Please, let us remember that the subject of the original post was "preaching".

From Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English:

To pronounce a public discourse on a religious subject, or from a subject, or from a text of Scripture. The word is usually applied to such discourses as are formed from a text of Scripture. This is the modern sense of preach.

Westminster Larger Catechism question 158:

By whom is the Word of God to be preached?
Answer: The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

Scripture references: 1 Timothy 3:2, 6; Ephesians 4:8-11; Hosea 4:6; Malachi 2:7; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Jeremiah 14:15; Romans 10:15; Hebrews 5:4; 1 Corinthians 12:28-29; 1 Timothy 3:10; 1 Timothy 4:14; 1 Timothy 5:22.

I think if you take these two things together, the answer is clear. The location or context is irrelevant.

 

[Herald]

So it's a sin for a woman to tell an unsaved man to repent and believe the gospel?

Edit: And what about Christian women missionaries?

Nikki, the OP asked about preaching, not sharing. One-on-One's are typically thought of as sharing. I think that's a completely different situation.

 

[Herald]

It is amazing to me, how on this site, very few people can respond with an answer...everyone seems to like to respond to a question with a didactic question.

Ed, I think you received a very clear response:

Ed, is she in violation? Yes. Why? Preaching is a function of duly ordained and trained men. Preaching includes teaching the word of God. The two cannot be separated.

Can she preach? No. Why? Preaching includes teaching (the two cannot be separated).

 

[toddpedlar]

So it's a sin for a woman to tell an unsaved man to repent and believe the gospel?

Nobody who's responded on this thread has said so.

Edit: And what about Christian women missionaries?

That's a different question. What does a Christian women missionary do? If she's leading worship services and training local men in the upbuilding of a local congregation, (i.e. function as what many might call an 'evangelist') then categorically yes, I would say she's in violation of Scriptural precept. If she's merely pointing people to the gospel and then guiding them to seek teaching from an appropriate church entity (i.e. a male missionary, existing congregation, etc.) then I don't think there's a problem, as long as she herself doesn't function as the people's teacher of the Word.

In all of this, recall that there is a difference between sharing the gospel, which all are called to do, and teaching/preaching the Word of God.

 

[Pergamum]

Let's start a post and define these words:

Sharing, telling, testifying, witnessing, praying, preaching, teaching, announcing, proclaiming, etc

 

[Pergamum]

How about women linguists? They translate but this involves telling people what the Word ofGod says.

 

[toddpedlar]

Let's start a post and define these words:

Sharing, telling, testifying, witnessing, praying, preaching, teaching, announcing, proclaiming, etc

If by this sideways method you're implying that we should throw up our hands and declare that there's no distinction to be made, and that Christian women missionaries delivering the Word of God as a teacher/preacher/pastor to an 'unreached people group' is legitimate, then I guess there's no convincing you.

I'm sure you've seen "effective work" by Christian women missionaries working near you, Perg. That effectiveness doesn't change the fact that many or most of them might be working in actuality as though a pastor, contrary to the revealed word of God. Are they serving as the authoritative contact, the teacher, for these people, to teach them the Word of God and preach it to them? I think it wise to think carefully about what is being done, and whether it in fact runs afoul of the Word.

I may be wrong in my assessment of what you're saying, though, and if so I apologize. Why not offer the first set of definitions, then?

 

[Pergamum]

Let's start a post and define these words:

Sharing, telling, testifying, witnessing, praying, preaching, teaching, announcing, proclaiming, etc

If by this sideways method you're implying that we should throw up our hands and declare that there's no distinction to be made, and that Christian women missionaries delivering the Word of God as a teacher/preacher/pastor to an 'unreached people group' is legitimate, then I guess there's no convincing you.

I'm sure you've seen "effective work" by Christian women missionaries working near you, Perg. That effectiveness doesn't change the fact that many or most of them might be working in actuality as though a pastor, contrary to the revealed word of God. Are they serving as the authoritative contact, the teacher, for these people, to teach them the Word of God and preach it to them? I think it wise to think carefully about what is being done, and whether it in fact runs afoul of the Word.

I may be wrong in my assessment of what you're saying, though, and if so I apologize. Why not offer the first set of definitions, then?

What's with the accusations of "side-ways" methods. "Throw up out hands" ??? Why the rhetoric?

Women excel in languages and literacy courses, which are huge in world missions.

Most try to guard against being "pastors" and local leaders - though ignorant - usually lead the "church" and the linguist stays in the background.

 

[Pergamum]

I also agree that women should not "preach" in whatever context.

But I would like a list of evangelistic activities and their definitions, or else the line between preaching, evangelism, witnessing, sharing and iving a testimony can become gray.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I realize that some here on the PB think that 1 Tim 2 is a declaration about how all of life should be ordered, but I think it is clearly contextually limited to how things in the church should be run.

 

[Scott1]

I realize that some here on the PB think that 1 Tim 2 is a declaration about how all of life should be ordered, but I think it is clearly contextually limited to how things in the church should be run.

My understanding is something like this as well. An exercise of ecclesiastical authority or control. So, if a woman "preaches" to her children at home or "shares" the Gospel with someone (man or woman) privately or even shares a testimony, even in a church setting, it is not a biblical violation.

Of course, having a rebellious attitude toward God, her husband or men in general is sinful, but that is another matter.

I don't think these occassions contradict the principle that men ordinarily are created by God to lead and serve, women to follow and help, either. There are exceptional situations also.

Knowing what I now know of the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture God's will, a woman intentionally preaching to a crowd of men, ordinarily would be sinful, even in an "open air" setting. There might be some extraordinary situation where that might not be the case, but that is not your question here.

 

[larryjf]

I realize that some here on the PB think that 1 Tim 2 is a declaration about how all of life should be ordered, but I think it is clearly contextually limited to how things in the church should be run.

Except that 1 Tim 2 proves the church order by pointing to the created order. It basically says that since women are under the authority of men in creation they are also to be under that authority in the Church.

 

[satz]

I realize that some here on the PB think that 1 Tim 2 is a declaration about how all of life should be ordered, but I think it is clearly contextually limited to how things in the church should be run.

Except that 1 Tim 2 proves the church order by pointing to the created order. It basically says that since women are under the authority of men in creation they are also to be under that authority in the Church.

1 Tim 2 uses creation for the explanation of why the church order is as it is. There is no reason to assume, without further bible references, that the verse should be applied to other spheres of life.

(Just to clarify, I do believe "preaching" in an authoritative role is outside of a woman's role and that applies both in doors and outdoors)

 

[larryjf]

1 Tim 2 uses creation for the explanation of why the church order is as it is. There is no reason to assume, without further bible references, that the verse should be applied to other spheres of life.

Except that, as you say, it uses creation for the explanation. It is for this reason, because the order is found in creation, that it can be applied to the broader spectrum of all spheres of life.

 

[satz]

Except that, as you say, it uses creation for the explanation. It is for this reason, because the order is found in creation, that it can be applied to the broader spectrum of all spheres of life.

Larry,

Because Adam was over Eve in creation does not imply every man is over every woman in all spheres of life. We are reliant on the revelation of the bible to tell us how we should apply the truth of creation.

As I see it, Paul first gives the prohibition on women's authority in v12. He then goes on in v13 "For Adam was first formed...". The reason women should not be in authority over men in the church is, by Paul's revelation, because of what happened in creation.

Paul never says that creation demands that women are not to be in authority in other spheres, so there is no reason for us to imply that into this verse.

In any case, we know the verse is not of all-encompassing application because the bible gives us examples of women teaching or in authority in other spheres, be it mothers over their male children, wives over their servants, female heads of households, or women teaching men in informal situations like Priscilla teaching Apollos or Abigail teaching David.

 

[larryjf]

Because Adam was over Eve in creation does not imply every man is over every woman in all spheres of life. We are reliant on the revelation of the bible to tell us how we should apply the truth of creation.

He is not using Adam and Eve as simply the first created people, but brings the creation account up to show the created order of the genders. It is because God created a particular order between the genders at creation that we are to keep such orders in our churches.

In any case, we know the verse is not of all-encompassing application because the bible gives us examples of women teaching or in authority in other spheres, be it mothers over their male children, wives over their servants, female heads of households, or women teaching men in informal situations like Priscilla teaching Apollos or Abigail teaching David.

It does not give us examples of women having this kind of authority over men.
Mothers over children certainly has nothing to do with them being over men.

As far as the other examples that you give it's not easy to give an answer to without the passages that you are referring to.

I presume the Apollos passage you refer to is...
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. (Act 18:26)

And if it is, i see no reason why you think it points to Priscilla having any kind of authority over Apollos. The word "expounded" can also be rendered "declared"...and there is nothing wrong with a woman declaring the Gospel to others.

 

[OPC'n]

I believe that women are not to teach Christian men the Word of God...period. I don't care where it is. Can a woman teach non-believing men? Yes...that's sharing the Gospel. Can a woman teach a man how to cook or learn a different language? Yes. Can a woman share and debate with men? Yes. But none of those things contain authority over men in the church or home.

 

[satz]

He is not using Adam and Eve as simply the first created people, but brings the creation account up to show the created order of the genders. It is because God created a particular order between the genders at creation that we are to keep such orders in our churches.

Larry, I completely agree with your statement, particularly the part you bolded. I agree thats exactly what Paul is saying in 1 Tim 2. What is disagree with is that Paul intended, in this verse, to dictate what should happen in other spheres of life. Paul has a particular purpose in bringing up creation, which is to support his point on authority in the church, not make a blanket statement on all of life.

I am open to the arguments about other spheres, but I believe it is a wrong method of bible interpretation to apply 1 Tim 2 to other spheres without other verses to support the point.

I presume the Apollos passage you refer to is...
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. (Act 18:26)

And if it is, i see no reason why you think it points to Priscilla having any kind of authority over Apollos. The word "expounded" can also be rendered "declared"...and there is nothing wrong with a woman declaring the Gospel to others.

Let me just address this part first. 1 Tim 2 addresses both teaching and authority. So if 1 Tim 2 has a blanket application in life, both teaching and authority are wrong in any and all senses. So my point in using that verse was not to say that Priscilla (or Aquila) had any authority over Apollos, but rather that Priscilla (together with her husband) was teaching Apollos, which I believe is the correct context of the passage, as their were correcting his deficient understanding of the truth to let me know the truth more perfectly.

It does not give us examples of women having this kind of authority over men.
Mothers over children certainly has nothing to do with them being over men.

I should have clarified I meant adult children. And again, these can refer either to authority, or teaching. The verses I had in mind are Gen 27:8, Prov 1:8, 6:20, 31:1-2.

As far as the other examples that you give it's not easy to give an answer to without the passages that you are referring to.

Here are the verses I had in mind:
Wives over servants: 1 Sam 25:18-19, 2 Kings 4:24, Esther 4:17 ( that last one is a little different, but still an example of authority)
Female heads of households: Lydia (Acts 16:15, 40) and the Elect Lady (2 John1:10).
Informal (i.e. not in a official preaching capacity) teaching of men: 1 Sam 25:32-35, Acts 18:24-28.

 

[larryjf]

Here are the verses I had in mind:
Wives over servants: 1 Sam 25:18-19, 2 Kings 4:24

Just looking at these first two I disagree that this shows they have some kind of authority in the context. It would be like saying that because my wife says, "pick up some bread at the supermarket" that she has authority over me.