Women speaking in the Church Assembly

[LadyFlynt]

by Augusta
Ok here is the low down on prophesy as it is used in this passage from what I have gleaned in my study of this issue. There is more than one way that this word is used. It is used in several OT scriptures to mean praise and worship or speaking the Word of the Lord. When we quote scripture we are prophesying. When we sing an inspired psalm we are prophesying. Here are a few example OT verses: 1 Chron 25:1-3, 1 Samuel 19:20-24, and Ezekiel 37 the whole speak the Word of the Lord to the bones which is a foreshadowing of how the Gospel spoken to hearing ears will raise us from the dead or quicken us to life and is the "power of God unto salvation" Rom. 1:16.

So when it is speaking about corporate worship in 1 Cor. 11 which almost nobody disgrees that that it what is being discussed, we can reasonably assume that when they use the word prophesy here that it is talking about worship and psalm singing and scripture quoting etc. Not necessarily new revelatory prophecy. Especially now since most of us as reformed christians believe that has now ceased. It has to be discussing either singing, preaching the gospel, or praying etc. Especially since we find out later in Corinthians that women are not to speak in the assemblies. Would Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit contradict himself?

We also know that there were most likely inspired psalms of David sung and possibly some new inspired songs in the age of the apostles possibly being sung. So it is no stretch at all if they are singing spiritually inspired songs of David that you could say they were all prophesying.

Okay, let's discuss what it means...women speaking or not speaking in the church...

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It appears to me the the silence is in reference to 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." In the synagogues a man would read the Torah, then the other men would ask him questions to a) discern if the man understood what he read b) to gain better understanding themselves from the other men. I would make sense that women should not only NOT teach a man, but also should NOT take part in this question and answer period "within the assembly", but should ask her male head when they got home. There are churches that actually even during Sunday School will only permit the men to ask and answer questions (not saying I agree with this in a normative Bible study however).

The reason I bring this topic up is that we know that Paul, being inspired of the Holy Spirit, would not contradict himself from 1 Corinthians 11.

the floor is open....

 

[JonathanHunt]

I should like to ask if you are including women praying in public in this question, because if you aren't, can I add it? I have known churches that extend the woman's silence even to the prayer meeting....

I would be interested to read comments.

Jonathan

 

[LadyFlynt]

I'm curious about that also.

Seeing as a woman is permitted some things with her head covered (this is a carry over of the other topic as it seems to be a matter of question), yet then is turned around and told to keep silent. Perhaps that silence is in regard to not teaching or overstepping her athority? And not ABSOLUTE silence?

 

[Philip A]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
The reason I bring this topic up is that we know that Paul, being inspired of the Holy Spirit, would not contradict himself from 1 Corinthians 11.

I agree with Calvin and Hodge!

Charles Hodge, Commentary on 1 & 2 Corinthians
Praying and prophesying were the two principal exercises in the public worship of the early Christians. The latter term, as above stated, included all forms of address dictated by the Holy Spirit. It was Paul´s manner to attend to one thing at a time. He is here speaking of the propriety of women speaking in public unveiled, and therefore he says nothing about the propriety of their speaking in public in itself. When that subject comes up, he expresses his judgment in the clearest terms, 14:34. In here disapproving of the one, says Calvin, he does not approve of the other.

Calvin on 1 Cor 11:5
5. Every woman praying or prophesying. Here we have the second proposition -- that women ought to have their heads covered when they pray or prophesy; otherwise they dishonor their head. For as the man honors his head by showing his liberty, so the woman, by showing her subjection. Hence, on the other hand, if the woman uncovers her head, she shakes off subjection -- involving contempt of her husband. It may seem, however, to be superfluous for Paul to forbid the woman to prophesy with her head uncovered, while elsewhere he wholly prohibits women from speaking in the Church. (1 Timothy 2:12.) It would not, therefore, be allowable for them to prophesy even with a covering upon their head, and hence it follows that it is to no purpose that he argues here as to a covering. It may be replied, that the Apostle, by here condemning the one, does not commend the other. For when he reproves them for prophesying with their head uncovered, he at the same time does not give them permission to prophesy in some other way, but rather delays his condemnation of that vice to another passage, namely in 1 Corinthians 14. In this reply there is nothing amiss, though at the same time it might suit sufficiently well to say, that the Apostle requires women to show their modesty -- not merely in a place in which the whole Church is assembled, but also in any more dignified assembly, either of matrons or of men, such as are sometimes convened in private houses.

 

[Puritanhead]

If properly exegeted perhaps 1 Corinthians 11 means you shouldn't even be talking on the Puritanboard.



j/k

 

[Philip A]

Originally posted by JonathanHunt
I have known churches that extend the woman's silence even to the prayer meeting....

As have I, and I wish my church did as well (my wife agrees too!). When a person prays during the prayer meeting, that person is leading the church in prayer. My wife struggles with even going to the PM for this very reason.

Also, according to Patrick Fairbairn's commentary on the Pastorals, Paul emphasizes in 1 Tim. 2:8 that it is men who are to pray, in contradistinction to what women are to do, in v. 9 and following.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
If properly exegeted perhaps 1 Corinthians 11 means you shouldn't even be talking on the Puritanboard.



j/k

ba, bu, uh, duh, eh....(sputtering)

 

[Augusta]

:bigsmile:

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Philip A

Originally posted by JonathanHunt
I have known churches that extend the woman's silence even to the prayer meeting....

As have I, and I wish my church did as well (my wife agrees too!). When a person prays during the prayer meeting, that person is leading the church in prayer. My wife struggles with even going to the PM for this very reason.

Also, according to Patrick Fairbairn's commentary on the Pastorals, Paul emphasizes in 1 Tim. 2:8 that it is men who are to pray, in contradistinction to what women are to do, in v. 9 and following.

Interesting... Are you in favor of total silence during the prayer meeting (that is, not even speaking to mention a prayer request) or are you only opposed to women leading the prayer? I can't imagine how any conservative church would justify women leading the prayer, but that's the way things go sometimes, I guess. Our church only has men lead the prayer.

 

[Philip A]

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Interesting... Are you in favor of total silence during the prayer meeting (that is, not even speaking to mention a prayer request) or are you only opposed to women leading the prayer?

I wouldn't have any problem with women giving prayer requests if the churchman leading the meeting asks for them, providing it is only a prayer request. (However, for families, I believe that the husband's proper role is to represent the family's prayer concerns to the church.) I know that the bringing up of a prayer request can, for some, lead into a direction about how to pray, or worse yet, be made an occassion for an exhortation to the church by the requestor.

For example, "please pray for my brother-in-law so-and-so, he has xyz problem, we just should pray that (fill in the blank) [spiritual instruction to the church about how to pray], and you know, we should all be doing abc.... [exhortation to the church]"

While I would have a problem with a man in the church doing so (for in so doing he is taking leadership of the meeting when he has not been given it), for a woman to do so is double offensive, because she is not only taking leadership, but also violating the distinctive between roles for the sexes.

I know that may seem nitpicky, but does that at least make sense?

 

[JonathanHunt]

In the churches I have belonged to, women have always been allowed to pray in the church prayer meeting. I think that some would not see praying in the prayer meeting as 'leading in prayer' - as opposed to praying from the pulpit, which they would see as leading in prayer.

Women have never been allowed to pray 'from the front' in my experience, nor take any part in public worship, apart from the exception of the prayer meeting, which leads me confused. Oh great, another thing to worry about, first psalmody, then headcoverings, then female prayer... someone turn me into a confessionally programmed robot please, my head hurts

JH

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Philip A

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Interesting... Are you in favor of total silence during the prayer meeting (that is, not even speaking to mention a prayer request) or are you only opposed to women leading the prayer?

I wouldn't have any problem with women giving prayer requests if the churchman leading the meeting asks for them, providing it is only a prayer request. (However, for families, I believe that the husband's proper role is to represent the family's prayer concerns to the church.) I know that the bringing up of a prayer request can, for some, lead into a direction about how to pray, or worse yet, be made an occassion for an exhortation to the church by the requestor.

For example, "please pray for my brother-in-law so-and-so, he has xyz problem, we just should pray that (fill in the blank) [spiritual instruction to the church about how to pray], and you know, we should all be doing abc.... [exhortation to the church]"

While I would have a problem with a man in the church doing so (for in so doing he is taking leadership of the meeting when he has not been given it), for a woman to do so is double offensive, because she is not only taking leadership, but also violating the distinctive between roles for the sexes.

I know that may seem nitpicky, but does that at least make sense?

Oh, it does make sense, and I agree. Also, I agree that the husband generally would represent the family's prayer requests, but I'm still single, and I was wondering about the propriety of mentioning something in our prayer meeting (which I rarely do... I'm a bit shy about it). If I attended prayer meeting with my father, that would be another solution, but that isn't the case either. But anyway, I agree with what you say and won't feel bad about it if I have a name to mention.

 

[Wthompson]

I have struggled with these doctrines.

Are women not supposed to speak AT ALL in Church? I agree they should not lead a prayer in church or put themselves at the head of men in Church.

However, what about in private? If my girfriend and I were about to eat a meal and I let her say grace instead of me, that would be wrong?

 

[Romans922]

i dont believe biblically private things like this are covered in scripture, just mainly the public worship. I could be wrong though.

The principle could carry over, but why so necessarily?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I think the man should lead the prayer times at home. Women can, of course, pray in private, but family worship is to be regulated by God's standards as well (with men being the head of the woman, spiritually speaking). When my girlfriend and I read through Scripture together, we always have me read it, b/c she doesn't feel comfortable reading several chapters of the Bible to me. *shrug*

 

[LadyFlynt]

Anyone notice that Susanna Wesley covered her head when in prayer (at home)?

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Anyone notice that Susanna Wesley covered her head when in prayer (at home)?

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]

Who is that ?

And what are the implications?

 

[Arch2k]

If you haven't read "Paul on Women Speaking in the Church"
by Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield, I would highly recommend it!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by Romans922
i dont believe biblically private things like this are covered in scripture, just mainly the public worship. I could be wrong though.

The principle could carry over, but why so necessarily?

I was responding to this...and you don't know who Susanna Wesley was?!

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Anyone notice that Susanna Wesley covered her head when in prayer (at home)?

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]

I've heard that the reason she covered her head, literally hid her face, was as an indication to the children that she was in prayer and not to be disturbed. I understood she would throw her apron over her head and that was a cue to the children. Is there evidence of some spiritual significance vs. pragmatic?

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

Originally posted by Romans922
i dont believe biblically private things like this are covered in scripture, just mainly the public worship. I could be wrong though.

The principle could carry over, but why so necessarily?

I was responding to this...and you don't know who Susanna Wesley was?!

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]

No I do not. And I still do not see any connection or answer here. Are Women supposed to cover their heads 24/7?

If that is what youre implying, I disagree. If not then please explain.

I also cannot figure out why this topic, a very very minor topic, has been elevated to a major.

I believe this is an area that Christ condemend by chastising those who tithed their minthe and cummin, but forgot the weightier matters of the law.

This issue should have about 17 minutes spent on it.

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by The Lamb]

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by The Lamb]

 

[LadyFlynt]

Joseph, I never implied that women should cover 24/7...that is another issue altogether.

Susanna Wesley was the mother of John and Charles Wesley and a well known Christian woman in church history.

Tom, I have hear that also, but was just noting it as a possiblity of it being for more than that.

Merely adding an interesting note in history...not forcing anything or attacking anyone...don't know how either of you two took it that way. I'm not up to a full-fledge argumentation...again, was just an interesting note...that neither of you found interesting...sorry.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Joseph, I never implied that women should cover 24/7...that is another issue altogether.

Susanna Wesley was the mother of John and Charles Wesley and a well known Christian woman in church history.

Tom, I have hear that also, but was just noting it as a possiblity of it being for more than that.

Merely adding an interesting note in history...not forcing anything or attacking anyone...don't know how either of you two took it that way. I'm not up to a full-fledge argumentation...again, was just an interesting note...that neither of you found interesting...sorry.

That is why I asked Colleen. I did not know what your comment meant. I apologize if I was curt.

Plus to be honest, this thread has 15 different names on this forum, which is way to many for an issue like this In my humble opinion

 

[LadyFlynt]

This issue had actually been dropped a week or two or three ago...somebody brought it back up and I was merely being conversational (as much as I am capable of)...sorry if I "started something"...really did not intend to

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
This issue had actually been dropped a week or two or three ago...somebody brought it back up and I was merely being conversational (as much as I am capable of)...sorry if I "started something"...really did not intend to

May God Bless You Colleen.

 

[staythecourse]

The men and women at the church I attend have come to the conclusion that men can pray aloud in the congregation and preach, but the women have agreed to remain silent in the congregation including readings, prayers, etc. They sing with the congregation. We have no choir but some women play the piano.

The women also have a book/Bible study and we are thinking of having a man at these meetings since theology comes up and a question occasionally is not answered or answered incorrectly at times. They also do not speak in the Sunday school. The elders make a good effort at redirecting ladies questions so they ask their husband their questions after church (when in line shaking the pastors hand, "Nice sermon..yada yada... what does the Bible mean...")

If I may say, it's all about usurping God's order. It's upside down to have ladies leading men. For some reason women want to lead and men tend to want to be lazy. We both have to buck the trend in us to keep order in the church and home etc.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Very true.

There were times where I wished there had been an elder overseeing the women's bible study as well.

I don't see it as wrong for a woman to speak during SS (which we don't have currently) as long as the women don't "take over" the conversation.

The trouble I had with asking my husband at home in the mennonite church was that he has short term memory issues. I could ask him right after church and though he knew it was a good sermon, he couldn't recall the main points till a day or two later...by then I found my answer or was frustrated. He enjoys discussing them, just can't do it right away.

 

[staythecourse]

We know that ladies are more communicative than men. What is it? They talk 3 to 4 times as many words an hour than the typical man? Men think longer (let's say as a rule) than a woman over an issue while the ladies are on to the next topic.

I believe the reports I've read that boys (and men) don't want to look stupid beforewomen so they clam up in class and the girls talk, ask questions, and are uninhibited (a main point of the issue I think) and get better grades very often.

Men hate to look stupider than women and save face by staying quiet. The problem is usually resolved when women hang back, let men talk amongst themselves, come to a conclusion either the same or different than what the women would have come up with and "Behold," the ladies have a leading husband (what the really want) and men have quiet wise wives (what they want.) Nirvana!

Too bad about the ST memory thing. I take notes. Could he? He can pull up the main points of the sermon later! That's a blessing.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I see your point...and in most cases it is true.

we have 5 children to manage together during service...a couple of the little ones are being trained right now...makes note taking a bit difficult. I've learned to be more patient and discuss it as it comes to HIS mind. (I feel a little bit wiser already...JK! )