Would John Calvin Excommunicate John Frame?

[CalvinandHodges]

Greetings:

I ran across the title to this thread at Still Waters Revival Books. I have heard complaints concerning Dr. Frame's theology ever since the 1980's. but I never paid much attention to them. SWRB links to this page in reference to Dr. Frame:

http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/framewor.htm

It is a criticism of Frame's book on worship from the principles of the Reformation. If what is written therein, and I have not read Frame's book, then I would be very concerned about Dr. Frame's state of mind if not his Orthodoxy. Outside of Justification by Faith Alone the Purity of the Worship of the Living God was second - if not equal - to the concerns of Reformed Doctrine.

Does anyone have any thoughts, either pro or con, concerning this matter?

God bless,

-CH

 

[Scott Bushey]

Greetings:

I ran across the title to this thread at Still Waters Revival Books. I have heard complaints concerning Dr. Frame's theology ever since the 1980's. but I never paid much attention to them. SWRB links to this page in reference to Dr. Frame:

http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/framewor.htm

It is a criticism of Frame's book on worship from the principles of the Reformation. If what is written therein, and I have not read Frame's book, then I would be very concerned about Dr. Frame's state of mind if not his Orthodoxy. Outside of Justification by Faith Alone the Purity of the Worship of the Living God was second - if not equal - to the concerns of Reformed Doctrine.

Does anyone have any thoughts, either pro or con, concerning this matter?

God bless,

-CH

I am sure Calvin would excommunicate the majority of us. I do agree with this statement:

The larger tragedy is that Mr. Frame's book is in itself a testimony to the low spiritual condition of "conservative" Presbyterian churches in America

Specifically this part:

the low spiritual condition of "conservative" Presbyterian churches in America

 

[caddy]

I am no Frame expert. I have Read his Apologetics To the Glory of God & portions of his Doctrine of the Knowledge of God. I have spoken to Dr. Fram via email on numerous occasions. I have found him to be warm,sincere, knowledgeable. He is a gifted and gracious man. If you have questions about his Orthodoxy, I suggest you email him yourself. As Matthew 18 directs us to do, go to the person who first. Get answers. To post questions about someone's Orthodoxy before going to the source first and getting answers to your questions is devisive.

His email: [email protected]

 

[Scott Bushey]

I am no Frame expert. I have Read his Apologetics To the Glory of God & portions of his Doctrine of the Knowledge of God. I have spoken to Dr. Fram via email on numerous occasions. I have found him to be warm,sincere, knowledgeable. He is a gifted and gracious man. If you have questions about his Orthodoxy, I suggest you email him yourself. As Matthew 18 directs us to do, go to the person who first. Get answers. To post questions about someone's Orthodoxy before going to the source first and getting answers to your questions is devisive.

His email: [email protected]

Matthew 18:15-17 15 " Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Matt 18 is if someone sins against you personally. All of our orthodoxy's are up for scrutiny. This boards orthodoxy. Our personal church's. Our confessions. Our overseeing body's. If one is willing to put in print one's theological views, one should welcome criticism.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

The title of this thread asks a completely pointless question.

Calvin is not the Church. The Church excommunicates and only after a Biblical process.

Setting up hypothetical confrontations between Calvin and Frame in which Calvin condemns Frame may make for a nice "Fantasy Presbytery" and make us feel good that Calvin agrees with us that Frame is a bum but it's not the way the Church acts according to Scripture.

 

[Pilgrim]

The title of this thread asks a completely pointless question.

Calvin is not the Church. The Church excommunicates and only after a Biblical process.

Setting up hypothetical confrontations between Calvin and Frame in which Calvin condemns Frame may make for a nice "Fantasy Presbytery" and make us feel good that Calvin agrees with us that Frame is a bum but it's not the way the Church acts according to Scripture.

 

[SRoper]

Aw man, who would you pick for your fantasy presbytery? I'll trade you Knox for Machen and A. Alexander!

Seriously, the title of the thread doesn't fit the subject.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Aw man, who would you pick for your fantasy presbytery? I'll trade you Knox for Machen and A. Alexander!

Seriously, the title of the thread doesn't fit the subject.

Yea. I guess it should be 'SWRB excommunicates Frame on the internet'.

Yuk yuk yuk

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Aw man, who would you pick for your fantasy presbytery? I'll trade you Knox for Machen and A. Alexander!

Seriously, the title of the thread doesn't fit the subject.

CH - I'm sorry if my reaction seemed unduly harsh but we do need to be careful about our polemics.

I am not unsympathetic to the concerns about Dr. Frame's views on the RPW.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Or perhaps more appropriately, Would John Calvin Excommunicate the Steelites? Dunno; and just as pointless to ask (I agree with Rich). Besides, I don't think they have time for Internet excommunications; they are too busy eating their own at the moment.

Yea. I guess it should be 'SWRB excommunicates Frame on the internet'.

Yuk yuk yuk

 

[py3ak]

Rich, would you be up to developing "Fantasy Presbytery: The Game"? I think you're guaranteed a market. With variables like, "Previously Orthodox Minister Goes Bananas and Sabotages the Process" or, "Orthodox but Unprocedural Delegates Shoot Themselves in the Foot", or, "GA Highhandedly Revises BCO" there could be endless hours of playing fun. You would have to learn how to subtly advance your goal with resolutions that don't appear to accomplish your aim, but lay a groundwork that makes your overture irresistible.

 

[gwine]

I am no Frame expert. I have Read his Apologetics To the Glory of God & portions of his Doctrine of the Knowledge of God. I have spoken to Dr. Fram via email on numerous occasions. I have found him to be warm,sincere, knowledgeable. He is a gifted and gracious man. If you have questions about his Orthodoxy, I suggest you email him yourself. As Matthew 18 directs us to do, go to the person who first. Get answers. To post questions about someone's Orthodoxy before going to the source first and getting answers to your questions is devisive.

His email: [email protected]

He was kind enough to respond to me once by e-mail, and quickly I might add.

I am content to include him among my brothers and sisters in the Lord, regardless of what others may think of him or his theological bent.

 

[caddy]

Good point Scott, and dully noted, but serious charges like this ought to be met with great care. As I read over that passage, that weighed on my mind before I posted. My point was, what I have read of Frame and the contact I have had with him makes me believe--in mind and spirit--he is not only Orthodox, but a good and kind man. As individuals, I think when we think we see error in someone, our first inclination should be to go directly to the source--if that is possible. Questioning someone's Orthodoxy on a Forum or Board before that is done just feels backward to me in the light Matthew 18. Is my thought of common courtesy off base here? I just don't feel that it is.

Matt 18 is if someone sins against you personally. All of our orthodoxy's are up for scrutiny. This boards orthodoxy. Our personal church's. Our confessions. Our overseeing body's. If one is willing to put in print one's theological views, one should welcome criticism.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Hi

CH - I'm sorry if my reaction seemed unduly harsh but we do need to be careful about our polemics.

I am not unsympathetic to the concerns about Dr. Frame's views on the RPW.

SF:

I was not at all offended. I tried to distance myself from the SWRB polemic, and look at the question from a more objective point of view. Upon looking at the quotations of John Frame from the above article I was very much alarmed.

I agree with Scott that if one makes public statements those statements can be criticized without recourse to Matt 18 principles. However, I will email him concerning my concerns.

One cannot be unduly harsh if there is no offense taken.

Grace and Peace,

-CH