WTS has some splainin to do

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Why does it seem that WTS keeps having controversies? I'll let others examine and explain, but to a casual observer it reeks of instability. What I do know is that I can't in good conscience encourage people to go there.
 
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I will have to disagree with you there. This even on the surface is highly irregular, taking side’s notwithstanding. Which I’m not looking to do. Every issue has a side, thus such a non default is an impossibility.

We are dealing with doctrine and dismissals, how can there be no concerns for WTS here.

Of course I agree with your overall sentiment, doctrinal clarity notwithstanding. Tipton is obviously no slouch.
ZackF said:
The whole episode was and is sad.

I've profited at some level from every name mentioned in this thread. Be that as it is, I don't see why that can't continue. It is that simple to me. I'm not left with need to find a side to take or feel I need to get more information in order to take one. We can be grateful that we were not in a position of having had to adjudicate anything. Whatever possible wrong doing that came to pass, Paul and Barnabas remain my examples in cases like this. Sometimes a parting of the ways is the best handling of a given situation that God may be glorified.
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I'm not sure this was avoidable. If all those involved were the same denomination, the ones filing charges had obligations and avenues to address doctrinal heresy. That could happen in any institution separate from the OPC if OPC are working together in it.
jwright82 said:
I have to ask though, the official statement by Dr. Tipton was that something like "my actions in the OPC hearing were viewed by some in the seminary BOD as violating the code of conduct of proffessers". That's a summery at best but, so I apologise, Jeff was suspended for perhaps similar reasons. Is this a conflict of interest in having faculty members in the same denomination and school so that business of one bleeds over into the business of another?
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And I think that’s a natural consequence. That’s the optics, yet WTS chose to go there with Tipton, really? (Trueman?) Come on. Brilliant minds. How does WTS benefit? Anyway, what’s done is done. It just feels really wrong. I don’t understand what Pastor Tipton did wrong? I’m hurt for him.
SolaScriptura said:
Why does it seem that WTS keeps having controversies? What I do know is that I can't in good conscience encourage people to go there.
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So he was still suspended without pay prior to his resignation?
NaphtaliPress said:
This probably comes with little surprise. Jeff had been suspended for the trial duration when he joined others in making the charges for which Dr. Tipton was to be a witness.
"It is with much sadness that I note that earlier this week I submitted my resignation as adjunct professor of systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary. The administration has questionably handled recent faculty problems and has indicated it wants to travel down a path I cannot in good conscience follow with it. I shall miss the teaching opportunities and fellowship with students. I pray that our great and glorious Triune God will turn the school and its administration around and put it back on the path laid out by J. Gresham Machen in 1929." Jeffrey C. Waddington, public post to Facebook.
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NaphtaliPress said:
I'm not sure this was avoidable. If all those involved were the same denomination, the ones filing charges had obligations and avenues to address doctrinal heresy. That could happen in any institution separate from the OPC if OPC are working together in it.
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Right but it does raise the question if this is the best way for the relationship to be, due to possible conflicts of interest? I'm not saying its wrong but did similar COI happened in the Shepherd trials? Or Enns? This may just be, an unfortunate and sad fluke and not a real systemic problem in the relationship between the school and the church. Just thoughts. I'm certainly not weighing in one way or the other. I have defended Oliphint's views on this subject, I won't do so in this thread, in the past.
But until more information is available, I'm not going to judge whether or not WTS, or anyone involved was at fault. I do think it is sad that in at least in this case the COI might have been a problem.
Than again I haven't read the faculty code of conduct, shouldn't the OPC have called another expert witness to avoid all this? I mean we don't know if was called or volunteered, which would make a huge difference.
 
A.Joseph said:
So he was still suspended without pay prior to his resignation?
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I don't know whether he ever taught again after the trial ended. I know there were pleas to the school to restore him due to financial hardship. Not sure if they listened or not.
 
Seminaries should not be independent in my opinion; then no question there is one ecclesiastical jurisdiction. But that is not the situation.
jwright82 said:
Right but it does raise the question if this is the best way for the relationship to be, due to possible conflicts of interest? I'm not saying its wrong but did similar COI happened in the Shepherd trials? Or Enns? This may just be, an unfortunate and sad fluke and not a real systemic problem in the relationship between the school and the church. Just thoughts. I'm certainly not weighing in one way or the other. I have defended Oliphint's views on this subject, I won't do so in this thread, in the past.
But until more information is available, I'm not going to judge whether or not WTS, or anyone involved was at fault. I do think it is sad that in at least in this case the COI might have been a problem.
Than again I haven't read the faculty code of conduct, shouldn't the OPC have called another expert witness to avoid all this? I mean we don't know if was called or volunteered, which would make a huge difference.
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NaphtaliPress said:
Seminaries should not be independent in my opinion; then no question there is one ecclesiastical jurisdiction. But that is not the situation.
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That could solve the problem. But it would cut down on financial giving. But it does seem like that is kind of what's going here, at least possibly. WTS could be acting underhanded but we don't know. So it could be legitimate, illegitimate, or some mixture.
But the church/school relationship could also be the problem as a reality of the way things are, not the way they things should be.
 
Since he's resigned from WTS Jeff Waddington has restored an article he wrote last June taken down due to a WTS gag order on faculty on the matter. This controversy isn't going away any time soon. https://reformedforum.org/something-so-simple-i-shouldnt-have-to-say-it/
--- Post updated ---
Since he's resigned from WTS Jeff Waddington has restored an article he wrote last June taken down due to a WTS gag order on faculty on the matter. This controversy isn't going away any time soon. https://reformedforum.org/something-so-simple-i-shouldnt-have-to-say-it/
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
I read somewhere that Trueman left to take a position at another School.

I read yesterday that he left for Grove City College? I have no solid knowledge of this stuff. I am still catching up.
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There seems to be several reasons behind Dr. Trueman leaving. For one, he had been bi-vocational, working both as a professor and as a minister, which he found incredibly difficult. He had a one point been very much in favour of it, but he has since said he is unsure whether bi-vocational ministry is the way forward.

So that would make it a natural time to leave WTS if he is changing jobs anyway.

As for why he went to Grove City College, he has said that he enjoys teaching undergrads, which he has not done in a while.

There hasn't been anything said regarding any other reason for leaving Westminster. That said, he has, along with 11 other OPC elders written a letter to WTS around April this year concerning Jeff Waddington's situation.

You may find these lectures he gave at WSCAL in March very informative. The first is on bi-vocational minstry, the second on issues in Reformed seminaries, particularly in how they market themselves to donors and prospective students over other similar seminaries. The third is more to do with modern culture and sexuality and why people think the way they do about these things, really a condensed version of the two lectures he gave at RTS DC on the same topic.

If anyone hasn't listened to them yet I would highly recommend you do.
 
NaphtaliPress said:
Since he's resigned from WTS Jeff Waddington has restored an article he wrote last June taken down due to a WTS gag order on faculty on the matter. This controversy isn't going away any time soon. https://reformedforum.org/something-so-simple-i-shouldnt-have-to-say-it/
--- Post updated ---
Since he's resigned from WTS Jeff Waddington has restored an article he wrote last June taken down due to a WTS gag order on faculty on the matter. This controversy isn't going away any time soon. https://reformedforum.org/something-so-simple-i-shouldnt-have-to-say-it/
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Very helpful and eye-opening, thanks for sharing.

From Camden Bucey in the comments:

Camden Bucey
6 months ago


Brandon,

Thank you for your comment. To be clear, Dr. Oliphint has not retracted God With Us. Westminster Theological Seminary bought the rights to the book and the remaining copies from Crossway, which they destroyed several years ago. This was done with a view toward Dr. Oliphint writing a revision. Nevertheless, Dr. Oliphint has nowhere publicly stated which, if any, of the views in the book he no longer holds. Moreover, the thesis of God With Us is found throughout many of Dr. Oliphint’s other publications.

This may seem sudden to you, but others have been working quietly with Dr. Oliphint on these matters for years. Several people, including myself, have sent him emails and letters and have received no response. We had refrained from interacting publicly because people told us they were working with him on a revision. But I became discouraged once one such person reported that Dr. Oliphint asked him to quit sending him any more material regarding the thesis of his book.

I continue to look forward to a revision should one be published.

Camden
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The seminary bought the rights and destroyed the books. Wow.:detective:
 
NaphtaliPress said:
Seminaries should not be independent in my opinion; then no question there is one ecclesiastical jurisdiction. But that is not the situation.
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Training of men to serve as presbyters was historically an ecclesiastical responsibility. The modern stand alone Seminary is a novelty.
 
BottleOfTears said:
There hasn't been anything said regarding any other reason for leaving Westminster. That said, he has, along with 11 other OPC elders written a letter to WTS around April this year concerning Jeff Waddington's situation.
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The quotes from Aquila say that Waddington was dismissed because he signed onto a document questioning the orthodoxy of Oliphint's views, which was not unreasonable. That means the actions look like payback. Of course, how this relates to Tipton is beyond my ken.

The letter indicated that “the suspension is on the grounds that Jeff signed charges against Dr. Oliphint and is to be for the duration of the trial process.” As was reported, at its March 27, 2019 chapel service, Dr. Peter Lillback, President of Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, informed the student body regarding a charge that had been brought against Dr. Scott Oliphint, Professor of Apologetics.

The charge alleges that Dr. Oliphint, in his book God with Us: Divine Condescension and the Attributes of God, presents a view of God’s immutability that appears to allow that God can assume new properties and changes in relating to creation, and that such a view is contrary to the Scriptures and the Westminster Standards. Dr. Oliphint is a ministerial member of the Presbytery of the Southwest of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), where the charges have been filed.
 
"Dr. Lillback’s comments can be viewed here. He addressed three points: (1) A statement regarding our doctrinal statements themselves, the Westminster Standards; (2) a statement of events that have occurred here at Westminster in recent days; and (3) a president’s statement of his sense of the faculty at this moment."

The video link is set to private...
 
BayouHuguenot said:
The quotes from Aquila say that Waddington was dismissed because he signed onto a document questioning the orthodoxy of Oliphint's views, which was not unreasonable. That means the actions look like payback. Of course, how this relates to Tipton is beyond my ken.
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Same
 
SolaScriptura said:
Why does it seem that WTS keeps having controversies? I'll let others examine and explain, but to a casual observer it reeks of instability. What I do know is that I can't in good conscience encourage people to go there.
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I wonder if the OPC will have a statement.

There are other options for Seminary. Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary where Joel Beeke is President, Mid America Reformed Theological Seminary where Cornel Venema is President and OPC Prof. Dr. Alan Strange (whom I deeply appreciate) teaches, Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary where Barry York is President, and Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary where Joseph Pipa is President. I have met all four Presidents and communicated with three of them. They were very approachable and patient with my ignorance and questions. They are the coolest guys. There are some of the best teachers at these Seminaries and they patiently helped me a lot. Lane Tipton allowed me to correspond with him via email after we met. He was very balanced and tried to help me also. These are the kind of Guys I want to teach future Elders of the next generation. There are better options than Westminster maybe.

At the same time I agree with Chris, our Seminaries should have the accountability of being under denominational ecclesiology. RPTS is.
 
A brother in the OPC who knows more about these things than I do has corrected me in a PM--Trueman did not sign the charges against Oliphint.

He did, however, sign the petition regarding Waddington's suspension, and I know he disagrees with Oliphint on these matters. I was mistaken regarding his participation in the Oliphint case, however.

Give me a short time, and I will correct my posts.
 
The doctrinal issues, for those who haven't gone to read Waddington's post, which is excellent, are concerning a new sort of attribute of God, called "covenantal attributes," which Oliphint evidently feels the need to insert into his doctrine of God in order to explain how it is that God can interact with humans at all. This kind of attribute, on the face of it at least, contradicts the simplicity of God, which says that God is his attributes, that the attributes are not parts of God (God cannot be reduced to a series of ingredients) but are rather various ways of looking at the one essence of God.

As to the way that WTS has handled the matter, I counsel patience and saying less rather than more. We don't know all the facts, and it is perilous to judge when we only have one half of the story. I have talked extensively with Waddington and others about this matter, and they are fairly guarded even themselves, so less is definitely better. Neither I nor anyone else not in the know have access to the board's decisions and discussions about the matter. We simply don't know why the seminary has done what they have done. It might look a certain way with the evidence we currently have, but I stress again that when we only have half the story, we tend to prejudge the issue, and that doesn't do anyone any favors. I would prefer that people not issue judgmental statements against WTS for their decisions.
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
"Dr. Lillback’s comments can be viewed here. He addressed three points: (1) A statement regarding our doctrinal statements themselves, the Westminster Standards; (2) a statement of events that have occurred here at Westminster in recent days; and (3) a president’s statement of his sense of the faculty at this moment."

The video link is set to private...
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What did ya think ?
 
Thanks for reeling this back in Lane. This is what I really think A.

greenbaggins said:
Neither I nor anyone else not in the know have access to the board's decisions and discussions about the matter. We simply don't know why the seminary has done what they have done. It might look a certain way with the evidence we currently have, but I stress again that when we only have half the story, we tend to prejudge the issue, and that doesn't do anyone any favors. I would prefer that people not issue judgmental statements against WTS for their decisions.
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greenbaggins said:
The doctrinal issues, for those who haven't gone to read Waddington's post, which is excellent, are concerning a new sort of attribute of God, called "covenantal attributes,"
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I read about this covenantal attributes thing a long time ago when Ruben was dealing with simplicity. What post are you referring to that Jeffrey Waddington made? Is it available?
 
I agree with everyone. What’s done is done. Can’t see anything being undone at this point. I figured if Pastor Tipton issued a statement that in itself is pretty significant and probably worth a mention.
 
A.Joseph said:
No further thoughts on the video?
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No, I hope it is hidden for propriety and advancement so speculation and ill motive might not be advanced. I can understand sometimes why things are hid. Lane was correct and I have been trying to adhere to the same sentiments he is telling us to abide by. Obviously there is a problem. But we don't have the facts and we should be patient.
 
I think with Lane’s post, we have approached a good and fair stopping point.:cheers:
 
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