Yearly Christmas Discussion

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nickipicki123

Puritan Board Freshman
Every year, Puritan Board has at least one post wherein people debate whether or not to celebrate Christmas. My question is: is there really a point in having the same conversation every year? If you have a question about celebrating holidays, maybe it would be good to go back and look at the conversations that have happened every year since this board began (or nearly). I just wonder what more could be added to the conversation.
 
Fair question, but that could be said about other topics as well. I think there is some use in leaving the subforum open for further questions and clarifications, but unfortunately most of the threads just rehash the same conversations over and over; that fault lies with those unwilling to sift through the older threads posted here, especially since there are many high quality PB threads from 2004-2009 or so.
 
There always can be value in freshly asserting the LORD’s “right” to be worshipped in the manner He has commanded and none other. We didn’t get to this point of such open rebellion in the visible church by not discussing such things, that’s for sure. It is certain, however, that people are free not to read such threads, or engage therein.
 
The year I started reading the PB, a discussion on this topic was eye opening and instrumental in helping me be freed from the observance of the day - both religiously and privately. I would not have even been exposed to the idea were it not for it being addressed in a vigorous manner afresh.

A couple of the brethren in recent threads have been challenged and seemingly have had their eyes opened. So, I do think that this is valuable to rehash. Frankly, most of the stuff we discuss, other than current events and prayer requests have been discussed already. This place will just become an archive if we cannot discuss the same doctrines over and over again.
 
nickipicki123 said:
Every year, Puritan Board has at least one post wherein people debate whether or not to celebrate Christmas. My question is: is there really a point in having the same conversation every year? If you have a question about celebrating holidays, maybe it would be good to go back and look at the conversations that have happened every year since this board began (or nearly). I just wonder what more could be added to the conversation.
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I see new names participating and we had one person recently who said she hadn't even considered the topic before. I like that people see alternatives to "we've always done this."

This year, I even noticed extreme restraint and an effort to be very respectful of each other. These are all good things.

Quite frankly, I'm always taken aback when people roll their eyes and write: we've talked about this before. It's new to the people involved, and the discussion helps folk tease out the logical and Biblical basis for a position that may not be apparent by being told simply to read. Yes, our board functions, in part, by not having mindless repetition and endless arguments about "established" perspectives, but the value of rhetoric shouldn't be entirely discouraged.

About the only point that seems to be missed is the reach of authority and position. Some are in God-given positions to affect what a local church does. Others are in a place to respectfully operate within those decisions.
 
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Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.
(Php 3:1)
 
When new to the board I asked questions as if I were the first person ever to whom certain theological ideas had ever occurred! :p The reason being of course that I didn’t yet know enough to research a topic on past PB threads. It’s a joy to see people learning more and there is always growth in our conversations around important things.
 
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Sometimes you spend hours reading old forums and have a question that didn’t quite get addressed, or want to know how one would apply principles in different circumstances, and since old threads are closed, or it’s so old some of the participants aren’t around any more, a new discussion is necessary.
 
This is the first year I have interacted with the topic and being able to have others interact with my specific RPW questions has been very helpful. I have even DM’d some folks who had posted intriguing thoughts that helped me further my understanding. If we didn’t have fresh threads I don’t think I would have considered the topic nor reached out to anyone via DM.
 
I do use the search function quite a bit when I realize there is something I need to learn more information on. I would not have searched for anything to do with xmas as I get advent mail from Sproul and Keller. To be honest, I was feeling guilty for not having read any of the advent devo's or anything else xmas related. Thank you RPB for relieving me of my wasted guilt. :)
 
I am grateful for the PB altogether. I do not post much, but I love having the ability to join in if I feel that I should. My eyes have been opened this year to the topic of Christmas, as recently as this week.

While I do a lot of 'searching' here on the PB I do appreciate newer threads on the same topic. What I have found through my searching is that things change over time (not God's Word though). I can search a topic and a thread from 2005 might come up discussing people, places, etc. There are times where we find out that the people that we quote have changed their views or stance on topics. (Example, James White being post-mil). So I could see the need to discuss the same topics from time to time, if for no other reason than to challenge the rest of us to respond. ;)
 
I tried in the other thread but got no bites so maybe I can ask here:

Do the elders have any right to call the church to come together at any other time than on a Lord's day? What about prayer meetings, etc.
 
De Jager said:
I tried in the other thread but got no bites so maybe I can ask here:

Do the elders have any right to call the church to come together at any other time than on a Lord's day? What about prayer meetings, etc.
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I think the general answer would be Yes according to Westminster, and at least the PCA and OPC BCOs.
 
De Jager said:
I tried in the other thread but got no bites so maybe I can ask here:

Do the elders have any right to call the church to come together at any other time than on a Lord's day? What about prayer meetings, etc.
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The elders have no right authoritatively to call folks to a worship service outside of the Lord's Day. There might be some irregular circumstance of extremity wherein they might, I'm not sure (I'm thinking of the Acts 15 counsel where they forbade -for a time- meat with the blood, etc.). They may encourage presence at a prayer meeting, for example, and their is a case for calling folks to a public fast, especially if it has been enjoined by the civil magistrate, but those cannot rightly -in my understand- be binding, seeing as how the Lord has given us 6 days out of 7 to arrange our earthly affairs, reserving one to Himself.
 
jw said:
... I'm thinking of the Acts 15 counsel where they forbade -for a time- meat with the blood, etc...
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I know it's slightly off-topic, but the eating of blood with meat was forbidden by God in Genesis 9:4-5. No one (so far) has shown me compelling evidence that this has been rescinded.
 
jw said:
The elders have no right authoritatively to call folks to a worship service outside of the Lord's Day. There might be some irregular circumstance of extremity wherein they might, I'm not sure (I'm thinking of the Acts 15 counsel where they forbade -for a time- meat with the blood, etc.). They may encourage presence at a prayer meeting, for example, and their is a case for calling folks to a public fast, especially if it has been enjoined by the civil magistrate, but those cannot rightly -in my understand- be binding, seeing as how the Lord has given us 6 days out of 7 to arrange our earthly affairs, reserving one to Himself.
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When I first came to Christ the church I joined discussed this question. (It did not celebrate Christmas.) That session expressed the opinion that if it thought an assembly would benefit the spiritual well being of the congregation, it was reasonable to expect attendance. This was never done with liturgical calendar-type events.
 
De Jager said:
I tried in the other thread but got no bites so maybe I can ask here:

Do the elders have any right to call the church to come together at any other time than on a Lord's day? What about prayer meetings, etc.
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I meant to add, see Westminster Directory of Public Worship (this seems to support Elder’s right to call special meetings in which commander acts of worship proper are carried out):

Concerning the Observation of Days of Publick Thanksgiving.​

WHEN any such day is to be kept, let notice be given of it, and of the occasion thereof, some convenient time before, that the people may the better prepare themselves thereunto.

The day being come, and the congregation (after private preparations) being assembled, the minister is to begin with a word of exhortation, to stir up the people to the duty for which they are met, and with a short prayer for God’s assistance and blessing, (as at other conventions for publick worship,) according to the particular occasion of their meeting.

Let him then make some pithy narration of the deliverance obtained, or mercy received, or of whatever hath occasioned that assembling of the congregation, that all may better understand it, or be minded of it, and more affected with it.

And, because singing of psalms is of all other the most proper ordinance for expressing of joy and thanksgiving, let some pertinent psalm or psalms be sung for that purpose, before or after the reading of some portion of the word suitable to the present business.

Then let the minister, who is to preach, proceed to further exhortation and prayer before his sermon, with special reference to the present work: after which, let him preach upon some text of Scripture pertinent to the occasion.

The sermon ended, let him not only pray, as at other times after preaching is directed, with remembrance of the necessities of the Church, King, and State, (if before the sermon they were omitted,) but enlarge himself in due and solemn thanksgiving for former mercies and deliverances; but more especially for that which at the present calls them together to give thanks: with humble petition for the continuance and renewing of God’s wonted mercies, as need shall be, and for sanctifying grace to make a right use thereof. And so, having sung another psalm, suitable to the mercy, let him dismiss the congregation with a blessing, that they may have some convenient time for their repast and refreshing.

But the minister (before their dismission) is solemnly to admonish them to beware of all excess and riot, tending to gluttony or drunkenness, and much more of these sins themselves, in their eating and refreshing; and to take care that their mirth and rejoicing be not carnal, but spiritual, which may make God’s praise to be glorious, and themselves humble and sober; and that both their feeding and rejoicing may render them more cheerful and enlarged, further to celebrate his praises in the midst of the congregation, when they return unto it in the remaining part of that day.

When the congregation shall be again assembled, the like course in praying, reading, preaching, singing of psalms, and offering up of more praise and thanksgiving, that is before directed for the morning, is to be renewed and continued, so far as the time will give leave.

At one or both of the publick meetings that day, a collection is to be made for the poor, (and in the like manner upon the day of publick humiliation,) that their loins may bless us, and rejoice the more with us. And the people are to be exhorted, at the end of the latter meeting, to spend the residue of that day in holy duties, and testifications of Christian love and charity one towards another, and of rejoicing more and more in the Lord; as becometh those who make the joy of the Lord their strength.
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But also note that this seems to be for extraordinary occasions:

Touching Days and Places for Publick Worship.​

THERE is no day commanded in scripture to be kept holy under the gospel but the Lord’s day, which is the Christian Sabbath.

Festival days, vulgarly called Holy-days,having no warrant in the word of God, are not to be continued.

Nevertheless, it is lawful and necessary, upon special emergent occasions, to separate a day or days for publick fasting or thanksgiving, as the several eminent and extraordinary dispensations of God’s providence shall administer cause and opportunity to his people.
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Interesting. I have been reading a bit about the history of the holy days in the Dutch churches in the late 1500s.

It appears from a bit of reading that in an ideal world, they would have not observed any special days; however, the civil magistrate (Catholic) enforced the observance of these days and the church, trying to make the best out of a bad situation, chose to call their people to worship on those days so that they could at least hear the true doctrines and not some Catholic version of events. This is quite a contrast to Scotland, wherein these days (to the best of my knowledge) were eventually outright banned by the Civil Magistrate.
 
Greetings beloved of God,

I'm no fan of Christmas, but I am not, therefore, afraid to enjoy a time with three of my children and wife to eat good food and exchange some presents. For us, it is purely a family day. I do not try to "keep Christ in Christmas." And since in 2022, Xmas falls on a Lord's Day, we will not have our usual time together. We traditionally switch to the day before.

EDIT - I searched the PB for the word 'Christmas,' by member 'Ed Walsh,' and only turned up two comments I made in all the past PB discussions of the subject. That's how interested I am in the subject.

Here's something I posted on Facebook this morning.
~~~~~~~

Greetings to all,

Here's an article I suggest you should read. I did a Google search on, "When did the commercialization of Christmas begin?" This modern view of Christmas is not very long, and it is not written from a Christian perspective. Just a simple history of how Christmas became thoroughly worldly and took our country by storm.

None of this is to say bah humbug. I hope you do have a good holiday with friends and family. But what I've learned is that Christmas does not now and never did have much to do with Christ. Historically it's been a time to get drunk, and more modernly, a time to be guilted into buying presents, particularly for children. As the song says, "It is the most wonderful,"--scratch that, insert--expensive time of the year.

jagwire.augusta.edu

Is Christmas too commercial? Well, that’s the reason it became popular.

"It’s ironic that today we talk about Christmas being too commercial,” said Dr. Ruth McClelland-Nugent, a pop culture scholar. “In the U.S., it really became popular through this commercial process. The popularization of Christmas in the United States begins with advertising.”
jagwire.augusta.edu jagwire.augusta.edu
 
Ed Walsh said:
Greetings beloved of God,

I'm no fan of Christmas, but I am not, therefore, afraid to enjoy a time with three of my children and wife to eat good food and exchange some presents. For us, it is purely a family day. I do not try to "keep Christ in Christmas." And since in 2022, Xmas falls on a Lord's Day, we will not have our usual time together. We traditionally switch to the day before.

EDIT - I searched the PB for the word 'Christmas,' by member 'Ed Walsh,' and only turned up two comments I made in all the past PB discussions of the subject. That's how interested I am in the subject.

Here's something I posted on Facebook this morning.
~~~~~~~

Greetings to all,

Here's an article I suggest you should read. I did a Google search on, "When did the commercialization of Christmas begin?" This modern view of Christmas is not very long, and it is not written from a Christian perspective. Just a simple history of how Christmas became thoroughly worldly and took our country by storm.

None of this is to say bah humbug. I hope you do have a good holiday with friends and family. But what I've learned is that Christmas does not now and never did have much to do with Christ. Historically it's been a time to get drunk, and more modernly, a time to be guilted into buying presents, particularly for children. As the song says, "It is the most wonderful,"--scratch that, insert--expensive time of the year.

jagwire.augusta.edu

Is Christmas too commercial? Well, that’s the reason it became popular.

"It’s ironic that today we talk about Christmas being too commercial,” said Dr. Ruth McClelland-Nugent, a pop culture scholar. “In the U.S., it really became popular through this commercial process. The popularization of Christmas in the United States begins with advertising.”
jagwire.augusta.edu jagwire.augusta.edu
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Don’t listen to the sermons from Rev’s McCurley and Ruddell then, if you wish to remain safe in your reverie! :) <3

Seriously; not hanging everything on these two fine sermons. It’s a process of making the association.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
Seriously; not hanging everything on these two fine sermons. It’s a process of making the association.
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There's that, I know. But I relate it a little to saying the names of the Days of the week. Sun, Moon, the Planets were placeholders for various Greek Gods. The New England Puritans didn't say the names of the week Days and made Christmas illegal. I do get that. Maybe I took too much from the Apostle Paul's teaching about food offered to idols. The gist being, The origin of a practice does not make the thing wrong in a context where the original meaning is forgotten.

Are the links to the sermons you mentioned on this thread? If not, could you send them to me if you get a chance?

As always, thanks for your reply.

Ed
 
Ed Walsh said:
There's that, I know. But I relate it a little to saying the names of the Days of the week. Sun, Moon, the Planets were placeholders for various Greek Gods. The New England Puritans didn't say the names of the week Days and made Christmas illegal. I do get that. Maybe I took too much from the Apostle Paul's teaching about food offered to idols. The gist being, The origin of a practice does not make the thing wrong in a context where the original meaning is forgotten.

Are the links to the sermons you mentioned on this thread? If not, could you send them to me if you get a chance?

As always, thanks for your reply.

Ed
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The one by Rob McCurley is here.
 
As was already stated, these are new topics to some people (including me). I have perused the old threads but if they are locked there is no way to asl questions. Probably every topic has been asked at one time or another and all of it is rehashed. I think there is much benefit to it and I appreciate the input for those of us seeking out topics new to us.
 
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