You can only act in accordance with your nature...?

[pbc561]

After hearing some teachings on Jonathan edwards, I've agreed that people can only act in accordance to their nature. But how does that square with:

1. Satan before he rebelled
2. Adam pre-fall
3. Christians, with the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness (1 Jn. 3:6, 9, Eph 4:24). What kind of nature is this that can do good works and still sin? (Jas 3:11-12)

 

[MW]

After hearing some teachings on Jonathan edwards, I've agreed that people can only act in accordance to their nature. But how does that square with:

1. Satan before he rebelled
2. Adam pre-fall
3. Christians, with the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness (1 Jn. 3:6, 9, Eph 4:24). What kind of nature is this that can do good works and still sin? (Jas 3:11-12)

That has proven to be a tautology. Nature acts. The will chooses. The mind thinks. Saying people only act according to their nature is the same as saying people only choose according to their will and only think according to their mind. It doesn't communicate anything substantial. The issue comes down to a psychological theory as to the process which leads people to make choices. The "inclination" theory does not really account for "motive." Why is the person inclined towards this or that? What moves him in that direction?

If we deny the substance theory of sin, and accept that sin is a judgment relative to law, then it is clear that the categories of sin and righteousness transcend psychological factors. A sinful man chooses to do sin even when he psychologically purposes to do what is righteous. The sinful man who chooses to give money to charity is motivated by his rebellion against God as equally as the sinful man who chooses to spend his money on his own entertainment.

Free agency means that the agent is free to choose whatever course of action is available to him. The bondage of the will is a slavery to the dominion of sin regardless of what the free agent chooses. The good tree brings forth good fruit and the evil tree brings forth evil fruit regardless of whether the fruit is an apple or an orange. The tree aims to bring forth fruit just as the person aims to do what is good. What is brought forth turns out to be evil in the judgment of God instead of good because an evil relation to God has been introduced.

With this relational view of sin, and motivational view of action, the choices of Satan, Adam, and Christians are easily accounted for on the basis of deception. The individual always seeks the good but becomes convinced that something which is evil is good for him, and therefore seeks evil as if it were good.

 

[pbc561]

Correct me in case I am misunderstanding. Are you saying that when Satan rebelled, it was because of deceit, when he was really seeking good? And when a regenerate person succumbs to temptation, its because he is deceived, and that he is really seeking good?

 

[MW]

Correct me in case I am misunderstanding. Are you saying that when Satan rebelled, it was because of deceit, when he was really seeking good? And when a regenerate person succumbs to temptation, its because he is deceived, and that he is really seeking good?

Yes. Satan; John 8:44, "and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him."

Fallen man; Ephesians 4:22, "the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts." 1 Timothy 2:14, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." Romans 7:11, "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." 2 Timothy 3:13, "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

Christians; 2 Corinthians 11:3, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:18. "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise." 6:9, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived." 15:33, "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." Galatians 6:7, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Ephesians 5:6, "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

 

[pbc561]

Would you say sin occurs once an act of disobedience is committed, and/or at the point of deceit?

Who/what deceived Satan? Not sure if I see how Jn 8:44 says he was deceived. Towards the end of v. 44 it says: when he lies, he speaks out of his own character.

And how does Gen 50:20 square with the fact that you said that we truly seek good, but are deceived? Josephs brothers don't seem to have been seeking good according to that verse.

 

[MW]

Would you say sin occurs once an act of disobedience is committed, and/or at the point of deceit?

At the point of deceit the person intends sin; the act is obviously the acting out of the intention.

Who/what deceived Satan? Not sure if I see how Jn 8:44 says he was deceived. Towards the end of v. 44 it says: when he lies, he speaks out of his own character.

He deceived himself. He abode not in the truth. The last part of verse 44 is drawing attention to his subsequent deceptive activity.

And how does Gen 50:20 square with the fact that you said that we truly seek good, but are deceived? Josephs brothers don't seem to have been seeking good according to that verse.

The brothers believed Joseph was a dreamer and in true revolutionary style were doing away with the dictator.

 

[jwithnell]

I've agreed that people can only act in accordance to their nature.

I'm not sure which work you are referencing, however it seems that man now cannot be equated with man pre-fall. We do act according to our nature if we rebel against God; in His grace, we act according to our nature when we cling to Jesus in faith, because God has changed that nature. Our desire to do God's will flows out of our new nature that, in this world, still is entrapped in a body fully affected by the fall.

 

[pbc561]

I'm paraphrasing what sproul has taught on this subject which I believe he learned from Edwards and/or Luther. You say you cannot equate post-fall man with pre-fall man, but if the principle that we always act based upon our disposition is consistent, then there must be an explanation for the 3 scenarios in my original post.

Armour, I kind of get what youre saying, but can't seem to grasp what that theory leads to. What you are saying is that no man, nor Satan, ever has or had any evil inclinations, but really is only deceived? According to that, then men really don't love darkness, they love light, but they fasley assume that darkness is really, light. What does that say about John 3:19?

 

[jwithnell]

The WCF states "God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil." And that Adam had the free will to do what was good "yet, mutably." That is why I objected to equating pre-fall man with fallen man.

I wouldn't draw Mr. Sproul and Mr. Edwards too closely together.

 

[MW]

Armour, I kind of get what youre saying, but can't seem to grasp what that theory leads to. What you are saying is that no man, nor Satan, ever has or had any evil inclinations, but really is only deceived? According to that, then men really don't love darkness, they love light, but they fasley assume that darkness is really, light. What does that say about John 3:19?

It seems you haven't understood what I was saying. I have noted that the tree is evil and therefore the fruit is evil. My point is that the person still seeks to do what he considers to be good. Even when the fruit is regarded as good by the person himself, it is judged evil by God.