Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
I have a very broad view of what can properly be called the Church, but Joel Osteen? I'm not that broad.
Your thoughts on the state of the church today
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I have a very broad view of what can properly be called the Church, but Joel Osteen? I'm not that broad.
Elizabeth
Puritan Board Sophomore
Well, every tribe and tongue and nation of the elect of God will be part of that city, and their joyful redemption IS and always will be (eternally) glorious and honorable. Glory and honor is not found in themselves as themselves (nationalism), but in themselves as the redeemed people of God, basking in the light of the Lamb.
Apologia Christou
Puritan Board Freshman
You think Satan keeps calm when there is revival? Edwards had to write a book to clarify what is of God and what is not. Here from his preface of The Religious Affections:
"It is by the mixture of counterfeit religion with true, not discerned and distinguished, that the devil has had his greatest advantage against the cause and kingdom of Christ. It is plainly by this means, principally, that he has prevailed against all revivals of religion, since the first founding of the christian church. By this he hurt the cause of Christianity, in and after the apostolic age, much more than by all the persecutions of both Jews and heathens. The apostles, in all their epistles, show themselves much more concerned at the former mischief, than the latter. By this, Satan prevailed against the reformation, begun by Luther, Zuinglius, &c. to put a stop to its progress, and bring it into disgrace, ten times more than by all the bloody and cruel persecutions of the church of Rome. By this, principally, has he prevailed against revivals of religion in our nation. By this he prevailed against New England, to quench the love and spoil the joy of her espousals, about a hundred years ago. And, I think, I have had opportunity enough to see plainly, that by this the devil has prevailed against the late great revival of religion in New England, so happy and promising in its beginning. Here, most evidently, has been the main advantage Satan has had against us; by this he has foiled us. It is by this means that the daughter of Zion in this land now lies on the ground, in such piteous circumstances, with her garments rent, her face disfigured, her nakedness exposed, her limbs broken, and weltering in the blood of her own wounds, and in no wise able to arise; and this, so quickly after her late great joys and hopes: Lam. 1:17. “Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the Lord hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries shall be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.” I have seen the devil prevail the same way, against two great revivals of religion in this country.—Satan goes on with mankind as he began with them. He prevailed against our first parents, cast them out of paradise, and suddenly brought all their happiness and glory to an end, by appearing to be a friend to their happy state, and pretending to advance it to higher degrees. So the same cunning serpent that beguiled Eve through his subtilty, by perverting us from the simplicity that is in Christ, hath suddenly prevailed to deprive us of that fair prospect we had, a little while ago, of a kind of paradisiacal state of the church of God in New England.
And so it is likely ever to be in the church, whenever religion revives remarkably, till we have learned well to distinguish between true and false religion, between saving affections and experiences, and those manifold fair shows, and glistering appearances, by which they are counterfeited; the consequences of which, when they are not distinguished, are often inexpressibly dreadful."
Jonathan Edwards, The works of Jonathan Edwards, Bd. 1 (Banner of Truth Trust, 1974), 235.
Apologia Christou
Puritan Board Freshman
Well, as far as I am aware of, the Puritans saw it as the millennial state that is about to come. And (if I am not entirely mistaken) John Owen sees the New Jerusalem as already being a reality, meaning by it the church-state under the New Testament. But he also still awaits a blessed state of the church in the latter times. And Edwards gives great weight to expressions as in:
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
As the waters cover the sea.
Habakkuk 2:14 and Isaiah 11:9.
Ah, just let me quote him again:
"It would be unreasonable to say, these are only bold figures, used after the manner of the eastern nations, to express the great extent of the christian church, at and after the days of Constantine. To say so, would be in effect to say, that it would have been impossible for God, if he had desired it, plainly to have foretold any thing that should absolutely have extended to all nations of the earth. I question whether it be possible to find out a more strong expression, to signify an absolute universality of the knowledge of the true religion through the habitable world, than that in Isa. 11:9. “The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” Which is as much as to say, as there is no place in the vast ocean where there is not water, so there shall be no part of the world of mankind where there is not the knowledge of the Lord; as there is no part of the wide bed or cavity possessed by the sea, but what is covered with water, so there shall be no part of the habitable world that shall not be covered by the light of the gospel, and possessed by the true religion. Waters are often in prophecy put for nations and multitudes of people. So the waters of the main ocean seem sometimes to be put for the inhabitants of the earth in general; as in Ezekiel’s vision of the waters of the sanctuary, (Ezek. 47.) which flowed from the sanctuary, and ran east, till they came to the ocean, and were at first a small stream, but continually increased till they became a great river; and when they came to the sea, the water even of the vast ocean was healed, (ver. 8.) representing the conversion of the world to the true religion in the latter days."
Jonathan Edwards, The works of Jonathan Edwards, Bd. 2 (Banner of Truth Trust, 1974), 285–286.
I have not read all (or most, even) of the posts in this thread, and am primarily responding to the thread title and, that, within the context of the social-media era.
We are prone, in this hyper-connected age, perhaps too intensely to judge the estate of the visible church at large based on the glut of all that is negative made available to us by this hyper connectivity. So, my primary suggestion, and hope, is that every member of the church -according to place & station- would take up his best efforts in his secret acts of religion, his private acts of religion (as applicable, to a family), eating, drinking and doing all things to the glory of God in his sphere of influence, and being addicted to the ministry of his local chapter of Zion, praying for the visible church at large. This kind of effort rightly spent takes away from an over-indulgence in all that is apparently wrong with the visible church at large. It works its way out in covenanting with his fellow members of Zion in his local church, and these churches working with sister churches in their Presbytery, and Presbyteries with their General Assemblies, etc. The very scattered nature of the visible church is indicative of the anger of the Lord, dividing us, especially over unbiblical terms of communion we've contrived, separating ourselves needlessly from other earnest, Gospel-preaching, right-sacrament administering, proper-discipline-executing churches. Only by pride cometh contention.
I do believe a pointed separation from focusing on all that is without, and spending our best efforts beginning on addressing the ills within, working its way out, is the best direction we can each, individually, begin with, praying for reformation from the Lord. All of that said, this is merely my two cents, expressed on a hyper-connected medium, addressing hyper-connected observations. I am returning to my cloistered space of self-examination, getting ready to spend tomorrow, Lord willing, with the Lord's people at my local chapter of Zion, making use -as the Lord blesses- of all His appointed means, praying that I will be more severe to myself as to duty, whilst more sensitive, understanding, and helpful to others in theirs.
We are prone, in this hyper-connected age, perhaps too intensely to judge the estate of the visible church at large based on the glut of all that is negative made available to us by this hyper connectivity. So, my primary suggestion, and hope, is that every member of the church -according to place & station- would take up his best efforts in his secret acts of religion, his private acts of religion (as applicable, to a family), eating, drinking and doing all things to the glory of God in his sphere of influence, and being addicted to the ministry of his local chapter of Zion, praying for the visible church at large. This kind of effort rightly spent takes away from an over-indulgence in all that is apparently wrong with the visible church at large. It works its way out in covenanting with his fellow members of Zion in his local church, and these churches working with sister churches in their Presbytery, and Presbyteries with their General Assemblies, etc. The very scattered nature of the visible church is indicative of the anger of the Lord, dividing us, especially over unbiblical terms of communion we've contrived, separating ourselves needlessly from other earnest, Gospel-preaching, right-sacrament administering, proper-discipline-executing churches. Only by pride cometh contention.
I do believe a pointed separation from focusing on all that is without, and spending our best efforts beginning on addressing the ills within, working its way out, is the best direction we can each, individually, begin with, praying for reformation from the Lord. All of that said, this is merely my two cents, expressed on a hyper-connected medium, addressing hyper-connected observations. I am returning to my cloistered space of self-examination, getting ready to spend tomorrow, Lord willing, with the Lord's people at my local chapter of Zion, making use -as the Lord blesses- of all His appointed means, praying that I will be more severe to myself as to duty, whilst more sensitive, understanding, and helpful to others in theirs.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
We know that this happens AFTER the Judgment, since there are new heavens and earth, so whatever 24 and 25 mean, they are not speaking of this present age. We don't know how the throngs of redeemed will be arranged for life in the New heavens and earth--maybe there will be regions; maybe the glorious work we will do for eternity as uncursed humans will require some social structure--remember, God made man to work, and I don't think our eternal rest is going to be one of laziness--it doesn't matter. But we certainly cannot import a description of the blessed state into an expectation for the present, when all our hope is to be fixed on Christ's return.
I hope I haven't been hard on you, Ed--I appreciate you fervor, and value our interactions.
God bless you.
Apologia Christou
Puritan Board Freshman
Well, only if "new heavens and earth" mean what you want them to mean. But is that so? How is this language being used in the Scriptures?
Isaiah, for example, calls the creation of the Israelite church under Moses the "planting of the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth", Isa 51:15-16. Let me leave something provocative here to think about, since I don't want to go deep into exegesis right now, from a sermon of John Owen on Second Peter 3:11:
"Peter tells them, that, after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of, verse 13, “We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,” etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. 65:17. Now, when shall this be that God will create these “new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness?” Saith Peter, “It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell.” But now it is evident, from this place of Isaiah, with chap. 66:21, 22, that this is a prophecy of gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of gospel ordinances, to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed, Heb. 12:26–28."
John Owen, The works of John Owen, ed. William H. Goold, Bd. 9 (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, o. J.), 134–135.
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Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
If Owen is here saying what you say he is, then I disagree with him. It's a pretty huge stretch to say that "after the destruction of ungodly men," is actually now. All these texts are speaking of a re-created heavens and earth after the last Judgment.
Apologia Christou
Puritan Board Freshman
Judgment? Yes, sure. But last judgment? Aye, not so sure, there.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
Your eschatology is funky if you think there's going to be more than one Judgment and one destruction of the world.
Are you perchance a recovering dispensationalist?
Apologia Christou
Puritan Board Freshman
There is only one last judgment when the books are being opened at the very end of the world, after the resurrection. But there are many other judgements of God that we read about in the Scriptures, and Peter is writing to Jews in the dispersion. So what judgment could he be referring to? He and the author of Hebrews, as quoted by Owen.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Ben, that was a cute answer but a funky inference, hardly implied by what Mat @Apologia Christou said. Clearly, he was making a distinction between the Last Judgment and interim–small 'j' – judgments – with 's' at the end.
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Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
In 2 Peter 3, he's speaking of the Last Judgment, because he's also talking about elements melting with fervent heat and things being dissolved. There is no destruction and re-creation of the cosmos until the Last Day.
Apologia Christou
Puritan Board Freshman
I suggest you study some of the judgment language of the Old Testament, brother.
Also, in Second Peter, he just alluded to the judgment and destruction at Noah's day, differentiating the "heavens and earth" in which he himself lived with those that were at Noah's day. But surely the material heaven and earth were the same since creation. So something is going on here.
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MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
Rev.7: 9-12 seems to describe a gathering of peoples from every nation, tribe, people and tongue. There is something about this gathering of people that allows them to retain their distinction as being from different nations, and yet this is not taking place within the nations themselves.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Not yet...
The world, particularly the United States, sees the product as never being as good as the advertisement. Go to any restaurant, look at their menu, and then at what they serve you.
But God is the complete opposite. It seems to me that, to many, God's commercials are wildly marvelous compared to His products.
MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
All the more motivation to seek to see the Lord's Day as a taste of heaven here on earth. worshipping God, fellowship with our brothers and sisters, and praying that He would bring even more into His adopted family to share in this reality.
I'm sure the completely realized fulfillment of the passage I quoted will be more than enough to bewilder us. Whether it come here and now, or there and later.
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