Your thoughts on the state of the church today

[Ed Walsh]

You speak as though Christianity was some political power, which it is not. The Gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone that believes:

Dear Ben,

What have you been reading?

Political power is the numeral uno power in this world. It has the power of lawmaking, coercion, and of the sword. It is the power Jesus came to subjugate.

Are you saying that political power is not part-- even the primary part-- of the "All Power" given to the Son? You must have read Psalm 2 somewhere along the line. I really don't need to explain this any further.

EDIT: My mention of Psalm 2 has made me think of another two 2s in the old testament that you might want to look at too.
Daniel 2, and Isaih 2.

 

[Apologia Christou]

Or, look at Romans 1. People acting wickedly, why is that? Because God withdraws his grace, even his common grace. Why is he withdrawing? Because they do not acknowledge him. And this is only natural theology. Even natural theology has a direct impact on how you behave, and this probably is the reason why the east is not as bad as the west.

 

[davejonescue]

Dear Beb,

what have you been reading?

Political power is the numeral uno power in this world. It has the power of lawmaking, coercion, and of the sword. It is the power Jesus came to subjugate.

Are you saying that political power is not part-- even the primary part-- of the "All Power" given to the Son? You must have read Psalm 2 somewhere along the line. I really don't need to explain this any further.

This is why I am looking forward sometime in the future to really digging into Kuyperian Neo-Calvinism. Of what I read, it seems he may be one of the earlier authors to write on this subject. I have already translated vol. 1 of Pro-Rege using DeepL, and will do the other two vols once I am finished with my Puritan stuff (hopefully along with his other non-technical works.) But I am fascinated to go deeper into this train of thought. Though I could be mistaken. I am just $55 from paying of Bavincks Dogmatics and Ethics from when I got both for $200 in a Logos sale. I think they were both kind of the forerunners of this stuff?

 

[Apologia Christou]

And by the way, dear brothers and sisters, for those of you who don't believe such an analysis is possible, and that it's all subjective and doesn't have any weight:

All we have to do is to move from the effects to the cause. And if there are no visible and clear effects of the gospel, no saving and restraining grace, then this gives us a clear indication of what is going on in the church. There is no need to compare one church by another if you want to get the overall picture, which is what I am trying to do. No one denies that there are faithful churches somewhere, there always have been.

 

[Ed Walsh]

And this is only natural theology. Even natural theology has a direct impact on how you behave, and this probably is the reason why the east is not as bad as the west

Even atheistic regimes like Russia have so far escaped much of the judgment of God due to sexual perversion, which we are experiencing through the rejection of God's standards in high places. Remember, Obamas, painting the White House in rainbow light? How about the New York governor's lighting up the rebuilt trade tower building in celebration of semi-infanticide excepting laws?

 

[AOB]

All we have to do is to move from the effects to the cause. And if there are no visible and clear effects of the gospel, no saving and restraining grace, then this gives us a clear indication of what is going on in the church.

I think what others are trying to say is not that we can’t know anything about the state of the church today. But that we are simply limited in our knowledge. Certainly, less limited in our age of access through technology and media. But nonetheless limited.

But the statement above I think reflects where the disagreement lies (at least with me). No visible and clear effects of the gospel is a severe statement that doesn’t reflect the reality I see around me (I can’t speak for your own context). Should the church reflect upon its sins and seek repentance continually? Absolutely. Do we believe God is wholly pleased with the holiness of the church as a whole? Surely not. But personally, I don’t see the absolute decay and godlessness *within the true church as a whole* as has been implied in the OP and in this statement above.

Again, I do sympathize with your concerns and I pray that we would all search our hearts, repent often, and pray that God would advance His kingdom more and more here on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[Apologia Christou]

No visible and clear effects of the gospel is a severe statement that doesn’t reflect the reality I see around me (I can’t speak for your own context).

May I ask where you live (or to what area you're applying your statement) and what these effects are that you see so clearly?

 

[Ben Zartman]

So Christianity shouldn't have political or social impact? The gospel that is the power to holiness can be silent and within it's own corners? The light of the world, the city on the hilltop, that leaves the world in darkness, and is not seen by anyone? How can this be?

Doesn't church history teach better?

Whether is has political or social impact is irrelevant to the mission, and regulated by the providence of God. The mission of the church is to preach the Gospel to every creature, regardless of political situations, and to seek a city not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. The light that shines from the hilltop is not one of socially legislated righteousness or morality, but the light of a full and free pardon to whomever believes in Jesus. A church full of redeemed people may serve to moderate society's excesses, but that's not the principal objective, nor the metric for success.
If you measure the success of Christ's work by what you observe around you, you will always have cause for despair. If you believe that He is sovereign over all things, you will have confidence that regardless of your metric, Christ is building His church exactly the way He intends to.

 

[AOB]

May I ask where you live (or to what area you're applying your statement) and what these effects are that you see so clearly?

Sure. I already listed just a few examples in post #24. But Western North Carolina. Also, in my original hometown (rural Virginia, a town of about 3,000) my sister and her husband are part of the only reformed church in the area. Christ is preached weekly, they are approaching 300 active members, and the gospel seems to be having an impact in the community.

 

[Ben Zartman]

Dear Ben,

What have you been reading?

Political power is the numeral uno power in this world. It has the power of lawmaking, coercion, and of the sword. It is the power Jesus came to subjugate.

Are you saying that political power is not part-- even the primary part-- of the "All Power" given to the Son? You must have read Psalm 2 somewhere along the line. I really don't need to explain this any further.

EDIT: My mention of Psalm 2 has made me think of another two 2s in the old testament that you might want to look at too.
Daniel 2, and Isaih 2.

I have been reading the bible, Ed, where the author stated that His kingdom is not of this world.
Political power is far from the first power of this world, and Jesus did not come to subjugate governments, but to remove sinners from the power of sin and fetch them into his kingdom, which as I have already pointed out, is not political.
Certainly political power is a part of the "all power" given to the Son, but it's incidental--He uses governments, just like He always has, to accomplish His purposes, even when they are indescribeably wicked like the Assyrians or Babylonians.
Psalm 2 shows the duty of all people in government to submit to the Son or face wrath, but that is the same call to every single person everywhere. It's not a outworking of God's decretive will, but a warning that teaming up socially and plotting against God even as coalitions will be no use. At Judgment Day God will break them in pieces like a potter's vessel, and they will see that it would have been better to repent and kiss the Son.

 

[Northern Crofter]

the judgment of God due to sexual perversion

I think the perversion is part of the judgment. Paul starts off his discussion of such perversions in Romans 1.25-31 with "Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:" (v.24). The "Wherefore" refers to his prior discussion of man rejecting His revealed truth (v.18-20) and thanklessly refusing to glorify and worship Him (vv.21-23). I believe the judgment in all our lands began when our nations rejected Christ as King. Yes, the Church has a spiritual task separate from its civil and social impact, but it cannot be denied that the latter will fall apart around us if the rebellion from God's revealed, natural law continues. Note v.31: "though they [referring to mankind in general since creation] knew the Law of God, how that they which commit such things are worthy of death, yet not only do the same, but also favor them that do them." The Roman Empire A.D. looks a lot like the west today - a rise to power, "Christianization" with its natural benefits, decadence, and then destruction. To paraphrase Samuel Clemens, history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. The Church should speak out against assaults against truth revealed by God in natural law while continuing its Gospel mission.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Whether is has political or social impact is irrelevant to the mission, and regulated by the providence of God. The mission of the church is to preach the Gospel to every creature, regardless of political situations, and to seek a city not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. The light that shines from the hilltop is not one of socially legislated righteousness or morality, but the light of a full and free pardon to whomever believes in Jesus. A church full of redeemed people may serve to moderate society's excesses, but that's not the principal objective, nor the metric for success.
If you measure the success of Christ's work by what you observe around you, you will always have cause for despair. If you believe that He is sovereign over all things, you will have confidence that regardless of your metric, Christ is building His church exactly the way He intends to.

How do you know all these absolutes, Ben? I think everyone agrees that "[t]he mission of the Church is to preach the Gospel to every creature, regardless of political situations, and to seek a city not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." But along the way to that city, you must see also that a significant part of Jesus' mission is the conquest of the kings of this world. The Father has promised the Son "the nations [for His] heritage" and the "ends of the earth [as His] possession." Then the Father puts these kings (political rulers) on notice commanding them to "Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." And upon threat of destruction, they must "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled."

 

[RamistThomist]

The problem with words like "the church in America" or "the church today" is that it necessarily includes within it:

Paula White
Joel Osteen
Ligon Duncan
Michael Brown
Rick Warren
Joel Beeke
Tim Keller
Etc.

That's why claims like "the church needs to get right" are functionally meaningless when applied to the "American Church as a whole.

 

[Apologia Christou]

Sure. I already listed just a few examples in post #24. But Western North Carolina. Also, in my original hometown (rural Virginia, a town of about 3,000) my sister and her husband are part of the only reformed church in the area. Christ is preached weekly, they are approaching 300 active members, and the gospel seems to be having an impact in the community.

Glad to hear that, I really am. But is this the exception, or is it the rule? You yourself say, that the gospel seems to have an impact in the community. How can this be? When some outsider comes into that town, does he realise a difference in the people? Do they talk differently? Do they think differently? Do they act differently? And if so, how is this possible? Well it is, because the gospel is being preached within the church, and the people of God are carrying it out. And in a town where, as you say, about 1/10 of the people living there are actually visiting the church, this impact is surely felt and it is reasonable to assume that it is real. The unbelievers see that something is going on, and they go and see themselves, visit the church, and get converted in the process. They have a reason to go to church.

What reason do we have to go to church? I just recently had a discussion with an unbeliever, and I told him how the church should be marked by holiness of life and virtue, to which he simply replied: I never saw a Christian who has a better or alltogether different morality than a non-Christian.

I almost cried when I heard that! This is the truth! The "church" doesn't shine anymore, unbelievers are not going to be impacted by this ugly kind of thing. The very thing that should mark the true church is being eclipsed!

Where is this impact in the world? No one denies that in a small circle these things do happen, I mean I am so happy to hear your scenario and literally imagining how this would look like. But in the overall scheme of things, we do not experience it, and we see no impact. The only reason (it seems to me), why this craziness (like thinking youre of the other sex) doesn't go absolutely viral right now, is not the church, but the last older generation who didn't grow up with it. But when they are gone, and all things being equal, I don't see where this will end. I mean when Putin made his anncouncement that his troops are invading Ukraine, he appealed to just that. I can't remember his exact words (maybe I should post this), but in his longer speech he alluded to how the USA is trying to get their ideas not only into Europe, but also into his country - by which ideas, if consistently applied, human existence wouldn't be possible. And in my opinion, he is absolutely right here. It's just saying the obvious. So this birdseye view surely is no allusion.

I don’t see the absolute decay and godlessness *within the true church as a whole* as has been implied in the OP and in this statement above.

Well you gotta be careful here how you define *the true church*, because if *the true church* is always the faithful church, then by definition I can never be right.

The problem seems to be this, that because the gospel is not being preached faithfully, and that over a longer period of time, slowly decaying, that therefore not only morality sinks, but also the church itself is losing it's real identity. And therefore such things as these:

The problem with words like "the church in America" or "the church today" is that it necessarily includes within it:

Paula White
Joel Osteen
Ligon Duncan
Michael Brown
Rick Warren
Joel Beeke
Tim Keller
Etc.

That's why claims like "the church needs to get right" are functionally meaningless when applied to the "American Church as a whole.

are possible, with little or no resistence. We live in a subjective world, objective reality is being questioned, and therefore we get away with alot of things that we do.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I think the easiest test would be to look at the fruit of those who are in the Church. Is there adultery, lying, greed, stealing, dishonoring of parents, malice, addictions, and other sins? Depending on your assessment, that will help you determine the state of the Church. But even this can be tricky, because so often our lives are so disconnected that we don't really know what's going on in somebody's personal life.

Also, another test would be how well the Church is standing firm and overcoming the evil one. Does the Church seem to be persevering, standing firm in the face of persecution, and faithful in all things to the Lord? The book of Revelation speaks a lot about this.

And then there is of course the test of sound doctrine, which of course is going to be subjective. But I think anyone with a sound mind can recognize beliefs and practices that are way off the rails.

I hope this is helpful and you all have a good day.

 

[Apologia Christou]

And then there is of course the test of sound doctrine, which of course is going to be subjective. But I think anyone with a sound mind can recognize beliefs and practices that are way off the rails.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones made an interesting observation here. He says that, other than the authority of the Bible, the thing that marked all the revivals we read about in church history is that certain doctrines were being preached, like the sovereignty of God, the true Jesus Christ, and sin. I can't remember all the doctrines he listed there, but connected to this was also the observation that we never find a sudden or big revival in cults or in the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Martyn Lloyd-Jones made an interesting observation here. He says that, other than the authority of the Bible, the thing that marked all the revivals we read about in church history is that certain doctrines were being preached, like the sovereignty of God, the true Jesus Christ, and sin. I can't remember all the doctrines he listed there, but connected to this was also the observation that we never find a sudden or big revival in cults or in the Roman Catholic church.

I've never thought about that, and that's a really good thing to consider. Even the second Great awakening, there was a big focus on repentance from sin, right?

 

[Apologia Christou]

Even the second Great awakening, there was a big focus on repentance from sin, right?

If Nettleton counts as a representative, then surely there was.

 

[Phil D.]

Not necessarily drawing any conclusions here, but it's hard not to notice that some revivals, such as the Second Great Awakening, have proven to be a two-edged sword. By that I mean it gave rise to some troubling and pervasive, perhaps eventually even dominant mindsets in the evangelical churches, such as Finneyism and Restorationism. Overall did more good than ill come from it? - probably.

 

[CovenantPatriot87]

I think you confuse his revealed and secret will, brother. How can he be happy?

14.Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

15.The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

16.In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

17.The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

18. I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

Zechariah 3:14-18

Nothing secret about this revealed will.

 

[TheInquirer]

So probably there is no real gospel anymore, not to the extent that it should be, and God just doing business in saving the rest of his flock before judgment is coming.

I think you dishonor the work of Christ in the world with that comment.

Political power is the numeral uno power in this world. It has the power of lawmaking, coercion, and of the sword. It is the power Jesus came to subjugate.

I really, really hope that comment was a mistake because it is wrong on so many levels. Jesus died to release us from the power and penalty of sin, a far more insidious power than political.

Ben already alluded to this but it sounds like your view is completely the opposite to what Jesus proclaimed before Pilate:

33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” 37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” - John 18:33-37

Jesus' words, said near the end of his earthly ministry, guide us into what he meant by all those kingdom parables that can sometimes be difficult to understand.

Yes, every knee will bow to Christ, but let the word of God tell you when that will happen:

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. - Romans 14:10-12

You alluded to church history earlier. Show me where the church has succeeded in ever setting up a lasting political kingdom? That effort always fails because God simply isn't in it - that isn't the kind of kingdom Christ came to establish.

 

[Apologia Christou]

I think you dishonor the work of Christ in the world with that comment.

Why? When I am not happy with the Christian state, ye very much sad about it, how do I dishonor Christ by saying this? Do I not rather honor him in this way? Because, in my judgment, this is bad, and it shouldn't be that way, and I say it out loud.

Am I ever allowed to complain? Let's say we all agree the state is very bad, are we allowed to complain? Or shall we always say: it's Gods will, and he is sovereign, and he builds his church, therefore it's good? I don't see any scriptural warrant for that, and I also don't feel like it.

And maybe you take fault with the way I stated it (God "only" doing business), and yeah, my apologies, maybe that was not good. But of course, God doing business is still business by his holy gospel.

 

[AOB]

Am I ever allowed to complain? Let's say we all agree the state is very bad, are we allowed to complain? Or shall we always say: it's Gods will, and he is sovereign, and he builds his church, therefore it's good?

It’s more nuanced than that. The OP and some following comments implied that the power of the gospel is seemingly nowhere to be found in the world or at best, scarcely identifiable. Others suggest that because God is sovereign and accomplishing His purposes, we should be at rest.

Two things can be true: there are always sins and deficiencies in the church that should grieve us, we should repent of, and seek to bring our lives more into conformity with the will of God and to bring the gospel to bear on all spheres of life. Simultaneously, we can observe from Scripture and experience that the Spirit is at work and that the gospel continues to change lives, churches, and communities in the world. And we can be confident that this will continue because the Lord will accomplish all of His purposes.

As my final word (simply cause I have nothing left of value to add), I would simply advocate for a balanced outlook on the current state of the church.

 

[Polanus1561]

This thread has been certainly a thread, reset - timeout.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I really, really hope that comment was a mistake because it is wrong on so many levels. Jesus died to release us from the power and penalty of sin, a far more insidious power than political.

You must have misunderstood me then. I mean politics is the number one power according to man. Just like Satan is the god of this world. if taken wrong, that would be blasphemy.The Lord God of heaven is God of everything. But we all know it means Satan is considered the God of this world by man.

I'm driving and dictating this into my phone so I have to stop and pardon any typos.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Someone may have brought this up already; but just an assessment of sabbath keeping in the visible churches in one’s nation will instantly tell how the churches are doing from God’s perspective. When he punished Israel, pollution of his sabbaths was prominent as the cause. Violations of the 2nd commandment also abound. Both of these in the Reformed churches as well as broad evangelical.

 

[Ben Zartman]

How do you know all these absolutes, Ben? I think everyone agrees that "[t]he mission of the Church is to preach the Gospel to every creature, regardless of political situations, and to seek a city not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." But along the way to that city, you must see also that a significant part of Jesus' mission is the conquest of the kings of this world. The Father has promised the Son "the nations [for His] heritage" and the "ends of the earth [as His] possession." Then the Father puts these kings (political rulers) on notice commanding them to "Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." And upon threat of destruction, they must "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled."

I know them because the infallible word of God has declared them. Jesus owns the nations not necessarily because they obey, but because they served to accomplish God's redemptive plan: all of Christ's elect are saved out of every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue, and the rest are broken in pieces like a potter's vessel. Every political entity will be done away with at the Day of Judgment, and only Christ's kingdom will remain.

 

[John The Baptist]

The problem with words like "the church in America" or "the church today" is that it necessarily includes within it:

Paula White
Joel Osteen
Ligon Duncan
Michael Brown
Rick Warren
Joel Beeke
Tim Keller
Etc.

That's why claims like "the church needs to get right" are functionally meaningless when applied to the "American Church as a whole.

I was very confused by this list at first…

Then I understood you’re saying it’s a mixed bag. I was thinking no way you put Beeke and Osteen on the same level of soundness

 

[pgwolv]

I was very confused by this list at first…

Then I understood you’re saying it’s a mixed bag. I was thinking no way you put Beeke and Osteen on the same level of soundness

I had exactly the same reaction

 

[Ed Walsh]

Every political entity will be done away with at the Day of Judgment, and only Christ's kingdom will remain.

Agreed!
Ben, this is not a challenge to what you have been saying–honest. But I do have a question about Revelation 21:24,26. It is a genuine and guileless question I have had for the past week or so.

Revelation 21:1-3,22-26​

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.​

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.​

~~~~~~~​

22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.​

23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.​

24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,​

25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.​

26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. '​

Verse Rev.21: 24 & 26 sounds like some ongoing process that seems out of place for the Eternal State following the final Judgment.
Q. How would you (or anyone else) explain this?