Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
I was thinking no way you put Beeke and Osteen on the same level of soundnes
I have a very broad view of what can properly be called the Church, but Joel Osteen? I'm not that broad.
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I was thinking no way you put Beeke and Osteen on the same level of soundnes
24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. '
Not necessarily drawing any conclusions here, but it's hard not to notice that some revivals, such as the Second Great Awakening, have proven to be a two-edged sword. By that I mean it gave rise to some troubling and pervasive, perhaps eventually even dominant mindsets in the evangelical churches, such as Finneyism and Restorationism. Overall did more good than ill come from it? - probably.
Verse Rev.21: 24 & 26 sounds like some ongoing process that seems out of place for the Eternal State following the final Judgment.
Q. How would you (or anyone else) explain this?
Fantastic. Amen.I have not read all (or most, even) of the posts in this thread, and am primarily responding to the thread title and, that, within the context of the social-media era.
We are prone, in this hyper-connected age, perhaps too intensely to judge the estate of the visible church at large based on the glut of all that is negative made available to us by this hyper connectivity. So, my primary suggestion, and hope, is that every member of the church -according to place & station- would take up his best efforts in his secret acts of religion, his private acts of religion (as applicable, to a family), eating, drinking and doing all things to the glory of God in his sphere of influence, and being addicted to the ministry of his local chapter of Zion, praying for the visible church at large. This kind of effort rightly spent takes away from an over-indulgence in all that is apparently wrong with the visible church at large. It works its way out in covenanting with his fellow members of Zion in his local church, and these churches working with sister churches in their Presbytery, and Presbyteries with their General Assemblies, etc. The very scattered nature of the visible church is indicative of the anger of the Lord, dividing us, especially over unbiblical terms of communion we've contrived, separating ourselves needlessly from other earnest, Gospel-preaching, right-sacrament administering, proper-discipline-executing churches. Only by pride cometh contention.
I do believe a pointed separation from focusing on all that is without, and spending our best efforts beginning on addressing the ills within, working its way out, is the best direction we can each, individually, begin with, praying for reformation from the Lord. All of that said, this is merely my two cents, expressed on a hyper-connected medium, addressing hyper-connected observations. I am returning to my cloistered space of self-examination, getting ready to spend tomorrow, Lord willing, with the Lord's people at my local chapter of Zion, making use -as the Lord blesses- of all His appointed means, praying that I will be more severe to myself as to duty, whilst more sensitive, understanding, and helpful to others in theirs.
We know that this happens AFTER the Judgment, since there are new heavens and earth, so whatever 24 and 25 mean, they are not speaking of this present age. We don't know how the throngs of redeemed will be arranged for life in the New heavens and earth--maybe there will be regions; maybe the glorious work we will do for eternity as uncursed humans will require some social structure--remember, God made man to work, and I don't think our eternal rest is going to be one of laziness--it doesn't matter. But we certainly cannot import a description of the blessed state into an expectation for the present, when all our hope is to be fixed on Christ's return.Agreed!
Ben, this is not a challenge to what you have been saying–honest. But I do have a question about Revelation 21:24,26. It is a genuine and guileless question I have had for the past week or so.
Revelation 21:1-3,22-261 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.~~~~~~~22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. '
Verse Rev.21: 24 & 26 sounds like some ongoing process that seems out of place for the Eternal State following the final Judgment.
Q. How would you (or anyone else) explain this?
We know that this happens AFTER the Judgment, since there are new heavens and earth, so whatever 24 and 25 mean, they are not speaking of this present age.
If Owen is here saying what you say he is, then I disagree with him. It's a pretty huge stretch to say that "after the destruction of ungodly men," is actually now. All these texts are speaking of a re-created heavens and earth after the last Judgment.Well, only if "new heavens and earth" mean what you want them to mean. But is that so? How is this language being used in the Scriptures?
Isaiah, for example, calls the creation of the Israelite church under Moses the "planting of the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth", Isa 51:15-16. Let me leave something provocative here to think about, since I don't want to go deep into exegesis right now, from a sermon of John Owen on Second Peter 3:11:
"Peter tells them, that, after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of, verse 13, “We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,” etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. 65:17. Now, when shall this be that God will create these “new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness?” Saith Peter, “It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell.” But now it is evident, from this place of Isaiah, with chap. 66:21, 22, that this is a prophecy of gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of gospel ordinances, to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed, Heb. 12:26–28."
John Owen, The works of John Owen, ed. William H. Goold, Bd. 9 (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, o. J.), 134–135.
last Judgment.
Your eschatology is funky if you think there's going to be more than one Judgment and one destruction of the world.Judgment? Yes, sure. But last judgment? Aye, not so sure, there.
Your eschatology is funky if you think there's going to be more than one Judgment and one destruction of the world.
Ben, that was a cute answer but a funky inference, hardly implied by what Mat @Apologia Christou said. Clearly, he was making a distinction between the Last Judgment and interim–small 'j' – judgments – with 's' at the end.Your eschatology is funky if you think there's going to be more than one Judgment and one destruction of the world.
Are you perchance a recovering dispensationalist?
Generally speaking I am greatly concerned about antinomianism; not recognizing, let alone honoring the Christian Sabbath.
In 2 Peter 3, he's speaking of the Last Judgment, because he's also talking about elements melting with fervent heat and things being dissolved. There is no destruction and re-creation of the cosmos until the Last Day.There is only one last judgment when the books are being opened at the very end of the world, after the resurrection. But there are many other judgements of God that we read about in the Scriptures, and Peter is writing to Jews in the dispersion. So what judgment could he be referring to? He and the author of Hebrews, as quoted by Owen.
In 2 Peter 3, he's speaking of the Last Judgment, because he's also talking about elements melting with fervent heat and things being dissolved. There is no destruction and re-creation of the cosmos until the Last Day.
Verse Rev.21: 24 & 26 sounds like some ongoing process that seems out of place for the Eternal State following the final Judgment.
Q. How would you (or anyone else) explain this?
There is something about this gathering of people that allows them to retain their distinction as being from different nations, and yet this is not taking place within the nations themselves.
All the more motivation to seek to see the Lord's Day as a taste of heaven here on earth. worshipping God, fellowship with our brothers and sisters, and praying that He would bring even more into His adopted family to share in this reality.Not yet...
The world, particularly the United States, sees the product as never being as good as the advertisement. Go to any restaurant, look at their menu, and then at what they serve you.
But God is the complete opposite. It seems to me that, to many, God's commercials are wildly marvelous compared to His products.