Zechariah 14:1-4

[Jerusalem Blade]

I have difficulty getting clarity on the 14th chapter and first four verses of Zechariah’s prophecy. I have studied a number of Reformed commentaries, as well as others with different viewpoints, and still find myself ignorant! So I am asking the King for wisdom, as well throwing this out to see if any of my fellows here at PB can shed light on it.

Is this not a picture of the Lord's second advent, answering to the angel's saying in Acts 1:11, 12: "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye here gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey."

I am not of a mind to sanction “spiritualizing” Zechariah 14:1-4. I am amil, yet think the amil position errs when it spiritualizes these verses.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.​

To illustrate some of the difficulty, verses 1 through 4 in Zechariah 14 portray utter catastrophe for Jerusalem, and a seismic upheaval; this a picture of judgment and destruction, preceding divine deliverance, with only a small remnant delivered. By no means can it be said this has already been accomplished; Wright says in his commentary this signifies the sufferings and defeats of the Jews from the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 to the present (he wrote in the 1800s); others say it is the surrounding of the church by the ungodly, per Revelation 20:8,9 (although I do not equate the two passages); and yet others (David Barton, for one) say it will happen as literally written and is the precursor to the Lord’s (supposed) millennial reign in Jerusalem, per the premil view.

In 70 and 135 it was not "nations", but Rome.

If one is to take it in a literal sense, then the Jews returning to Palestine are returning to judgment, as to a threshing floor, with but a fraction saved. This is not inconsistent with a basic amil view, for this view does not necessarily preclude such things (neither does it preclude an actual person as antichrist, nor actual people as the two witnesses of Rev. 11).

Yet the Reformed writings I have seen construe this Zechariah passage as not pertaining to the actual Jerusalem here below, but to the church. Any thoughts?

Steve

 

[Blueridge Believer]

A difficult passage for sure brother. However, in light of passages in Amos, that most premill take to be future which Peter days are fullfilled in Acts 2, and John the Baptist fulfilling Mal. 3, I'm not sure what to do with it. Looking at vs. 8:
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

It would tend to make me believe it has to do with the church around the time of the New Heavens and New Earth.

 

[etexas]

Steve, I will have to check some things in my personal library. In some ways I find it difficult to apply it to the Church......however that is just me taking it at face value! I would like to examine that myself. Pax Vobiscum

 

[Herald]

Steve - without drilling down on the Zechariah passage further, I do have some immediate comments. Could not this prophecy have been fulfilled in verses 1-2 in A.D. 70?

In 70 and 135 it was not "nations", but Rome.

Rome was a conglomerate. It was made up of many nations, that together made up the Roman Empire. I have no problem with A.D. 70 being the fulfillment of Zech. 14:1-2.

Regarding Zech. 14:3-4, I have a hard time spiritualizing, "...the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south." This is one of the reasons why I hold to a pre-mil position.

 

[ajrock2000]

This passage must be taken spiritually referring the to the church during the end, when Satans armies will rise up against the church (Jerusalem, Israel, Judeaa, many names) spiritually by false prophets and the whole bunch. I believe its the correct biblical interpretation to equate this with Rev 20:8-9 (and a lot more of revelation).

Why do so many people go against spiritualizing things? Nevertheless, we should let God be His own interpreter, a spiritual Jerusalem (God's church, peculiar people, chosen race, "holy nation") (Psalm 125:2, Galatians 3:26, 1 Peter 2:9) will goto battle, this is the only conclusion that makes biblical sense without confusion. AD 70 looks good on the outside as a speculation, but that is all it is. There are more vital spiritual truths to the spiritual battles that are and will take place, and they are of much greater importance, not a literal temple in AD 70 or in a earthly reign.

 

[Herald]

Why do so many people go against spiritualizing things?

Because the text (in this case Zech. 14:1-4) is plain to this reader. The Roman destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 is not an answer for convenience sake. Zechariah writes:

Zechariah 14:2 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

Jerusalem was sacked, the homes plundered, women raped and the inhabitants dispersed by the Roman minions. As in during the captivity, there was a remnant left in the land. These things did happen. That is why I lean towards accepting this view on face value. Just call me a partial-preterist.

Regarding verse 4, the specific nature of what will happen to the mountains and the gravity of Christ's return lead me to believe that what is described will happen. While I am no longer a dispensationalist, I am not fearful of all futuristic positions on eschatology. Did someone say, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"?

 

[ajrock2000]

I agree with you that these things look very convincing from the outside, and I have not yet studied much of the OT prophesies. I hold fast to a scripture-only approach, and just cannot make make sense of it (especially in the context of Matthew 24 speaking of end times dealing with false prophets and christs, which is a warning to the church to watch out for these things, not for a literal temple siege)

Further, all those things which Jesus spoke of were not fulfilled before/in 70 AD, in that 'generation' which people take to mean people standing there at that time. And a lot more things I do not want to get off topic with...

This is all confusion, and I know God is never the author of confusion. Plus, it makes me question it right away when I see the majority of R.C. Sprouls (I have the Reformation Study Bible) notes on the controversial passages in Matt 24 are "According to Josephus"...grrr. Let God be true and every man a liar!

Anyways, thanks for the comments BaptistInCrisis, indeed I have a lot more to study on this.

 

[Herald]

This is all confusion, and I know God is never the author of confusion.

Asa - my brother, this is not confusion at all, it's discussion. Eschatology is the last great frontier in the theological world. There is so much disagreement, even among good Reformed minds. I have to be honest and state that my eschatology is very simple. Jesus is coming again. That is all I can state with certainty.

 

[ajrock2000]

Jesus is coming again. That is all I can state with certainty.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Means what it says.

Jesus comes back, Mt. of Olives is split in two.

*shrug*

Still premill....

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Thanks all for your thoughts so far.

There is a time to apprehend a thing spiritually and not merely literally, and this has especial significance with Israel. In our days, what is Israel? Let me post a brief piece on this key matter, and then continue my questions re Zech 14:1-4. The identity of “Israel” is the key, in my view, to a correct apprehension of the prophecies (notwithstanding my lack of clarity on the verses in question).


SPIRITUAL IDENTITY THEFT: Stealing God’s Gift

The identity under consideration is the name “Israel,” and as its origin and usage come from the Bible, we will first look there. When this name was bestowed upon Jacob by God at Peniel, after he had wrestled with Him through the night (see the account in Genesis 32:24-32), it was given to designate the patriarch’s new spiritual status: in the LORD’s own words, “Thy name shall be no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”

This name is utterly unique! The Lord, set to purify and equip His patriarch of the covenant people, Himself wrestles with Jacob (as with us in all our adversities — truly it is Him in like graciousness behind the scenes) granting him strength to continue — and even prevail — in his desire for the blessing. Jacob’s own strength unequal to the task, and crippled in the struggle, he received strength from God: “with the name He gives the thing itself which the name implies” (1). The name was conceived and bestowed by God to designate a blessed state of being; it was passed on to his descendants as well, and the name was also removed from some of them by the same Bestower, for serious violations of the covenant, as seen in Exodus 12:15, 19; 30:33, 38, and Isaiah 9:13-17; 48:16-19 (2), and shown in the expressions, “that soul shall be cut off from Israel,” “…shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel,” “…shall even be cut off from his people,” “…destroyed from among you,” and “…destroyed from before Me.”

It should be clear that this is not a name to be bestowed by men (3), as God has created and reserved it for His own special use. It should also be clear He retains the right to strip the name from whom He will, and specifies when this is to be done.

To use this name when it has not been given, or after it has been removed, is to steal a prerogative reserved by God to Himself. It is stealing the right to confer an identity from the Almighty God!

We will look at a modern instance of this in a moment, but let us first look at a warning to the people of Israel given by God through Moses in his Fifth Book, which bears directly on this:

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18:18, 19)​

This is a warning to heed the words of those appointed to the prophetic office, and in particular Him who is the culmination and fulfillment of that office, the Messiah, whom New Covenant believers know as Jesus of Nazareth. The phrase, “I will require it of him,” means in this instance, “I will require his place among My people and his life.” Consider the destruction to be visited on those who with wicked hearts refused to “hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments…” (Deut 28:15), which promised destruction is shown in the verses following, so you may comprehend the dread import of the words “I will require it…” (4) to the Jewish nation after Messiah appeared among them.

Messiah’s apostle, Peter, in quoting from this passage (5) as he spoke to the people of Israel, rendered it, “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts 3:22, 23)

We have looked at the pertinent Biblical data, and have seen the name Israel given by God and taken away by Him (from those who did not warrant it). We have seen it specifically taken away from those in the Jewish nation who, in the time of Christ and the apostles, refused to “hear that Prophet,” who would not “hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name.” Simply put, God openly cleft all those who refused His word through Messiah from the people of Israel, like a butcher cuts away gristle. As with a great cleaver He divided the nation, those who were His, and those who were not, even as aged Simeon prophesied over the infant Jesus in the temple, “Behold, this child is set for the falling and rising again of many in Israel…” (Luke 2:34; Cf. Isaiah 8:14, 15)

From this point on, the people of Israel gathered around their King, Messiah Jesus. Those who did not were “cut off” from the people by the judicial decree of God. Jesus Himself foretold this event when He announced to the chief priests and elders of Israel, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43) Immediately prior to that statement He told them the same thing in the parable of the vineyard, there holding up a mirror to their motives and actions (verses 33-41). Many of the priests, and some Pharisees, did turn to Him.

We look now at the “identity theft” spoken of earlier, which, amazingly, is abetted by some in the Community of Messiah, God’s authentic “holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9).

On May 14, 1948, descendants of those Jews who were declared no longer people of Israel by Messiah (and by the word of Moses) declared themselves a sovereign nation in the land of Palestine, to be called the State of Israel. Those Jews who denominated themselves thus, had for 2,000 years maintained their identity as Jews through subjection to rabbinic teaching devolved from the first century Pharisees, who were, in the main, the leaders of the apostasy from — and rebellion against — the God of Israel, and His appointed King. This stealing the name only God may give is an act of unbridled defiance.

I hear many Christians declaiming from various prophetic Scriptures and schemas that the Jewish state is still God’s Israel, and they go quite on about it, overlooking — or avoiding — the foundational decree on the matter.

But God’s decree stands eternal: A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up…Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.

He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. [Jesus said,]…I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak. (John 1:10-12; 12:49, 50)​

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My [the Father’s] words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

Whoever abides in the word and Spirit of the King of Israel partakes of His identity and Kingdom, be they Jew or Gentile. Any others who call themselves Israelites, on any other basis, will answer for this identity theft — this stealing of that which belongs to God — on the Day that is coming quickly. Do not support them in their grievous delusion and sin!

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Footnotes:

(1) Commentary Upon The Book Of Genesis, by John Calvin, on 32:28
(2) Further references on this wise: Deut. 4:2, 3; Lev. 7:21, 25, 27; 18:29; 19:8; 20:6; 23:29, 30; Num. 9:13; 15:30, 31; 19:13; Psalm 94:23; 101:8; etc.
(3) This is not referring to parents who name their children after Biblical characters, even such as Israel, Jesus, Moses, etc., which may be a way of honoring heroes of the Faith, and seeking the blessing of their children.
(4) It is the same usage as in Genesis 9:5; 42:22; and 2 Chron. 24:22.
(5) Deuteronomy 18:15, 19.

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At one point in my life I was – even while Reformed in soteriology! – premil as concerns eschatology. During a colloquium with two Jewish pastors (for the purpose of seeing how being Jews impacted our faith) they began talking about the sacrifices that would be in the Millennial Temple, and I said to them, Haven’t you guys ever read the Epistle to the Hebrews? So I asked one of these men, a good friend, to lend me all the books he had on the amil position, and from there on I was sold on that view. There will be no shadows for us to hold to – not even as “memorials” – when the Son shines in His glory.

Now, seeing the international community gathered around Messiah as the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16), what is the status of the Jewish State? It is in no way the Israel of prophecy, as it in no way is the recipient – the heir, if you will – of the promises. The Son, Messiah, is that Israel to whom the promises were made, and those incorporated into His body are one with Him, and thus justly called Israel, even though there are Gentiles grafted into Him, the olive tree of Romans 11, the holy root. So what is the Jewish State? And why did the Sovereign grant it existence? It is certainly not holy (as is obvious to those who see its modern history, and its fruit). As Scripture says, “Woe to him that builds a town with blood, and establishes a city by iniquity!” Habakkuk 2:12

So what then? My view is that it has become the Lord’s threshing floor, to gather out of all those who have made aliyah the Lord’s elect. There are this moment both Jewish and Palestinian believers in Jesus laboring in His harvest there.

The land shall go to the meek of the earth, not the soldiers with the fiercest weapons. The land shall go to the seed of Abraham, per Paul’s definition in Galatians 3:29. The wicked have no place in it, no inheritance nor right to it.

Back to Zechariah, in verse 5 of chapter 14, “…and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee”, as well as the following verses, does seem to be the end of time. I don’t care to argue the case against the “Millennial reign” here, I would just like some alternate amil views on this passage.

Mistakes in doctrine in this particular area actually cause blood to be shed.

CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS

Woe to him that builds a town with blood,
and establishes a city by iniquity! –Habakkuk the prophet (2:12)​

You think to build
your kingdom of the Jews
on the backs
– and on the blood –
of the native Palestinians
as though they were no people
and had not lived on the land
long centuries?

You think to build
the Kingdom of the holy God
upon theft, rape, murder, the foundation
Deir Yassin and crimes of like horror,
yes, upon the genocide of a peoples,
and think you build in His name?
It is through you nations blaspheme
the King, and spit on the Name.

You neglect His saying,
“Except the LORD build the house,
they labor in vain that build it,”
thinking He will honor atrocities:
Zionist land-lust, British deception,
American coercion of the U.N. in ‘48
when the world agreed to steal Palestine
from the Palestinians!

Who are God’s people, O Christians,
Jews who hate Messiah Yeshua
– and as Jesus said,
thus His Father also –
living in rank ungodliness
or religious arrogance and pride,
or those Palestinians who are His,
rejoicing in the precious blood of the Passover Lamb?

Mark well whose cause you further
supporting injustice
through military prowess,
as the Palestinian Christians bear the cross
deferring vengeance for love of Christ.
It is the meek shall inherit that land
– and all the earth –
not the fierce and mighty.

In the unbelieving Arab world it is thought
Christ disdains His Arab children, and loves
those Jews who cruelly oppress them, for they hear
your schemes; but God hears Ishmael’s cry
as his children groan under the boot you have bought
and polished for the strong oppressor;
the one cries out to Him, the other curses His name,
and the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth from the ground!​

Steve

P.S. Those who do not know of Deir Yassin, Google it.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

Wow brother Steve! Man that was good! May I have your permission to email that to some folks with your name attached?

 

[ajrock2000]

Excellent, Jerusalem Blade! Interpretations do belong to God! (Gen 40:8)