May you worship God with a heretic?

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I was invited by my parents to visit their Pentecostal Church tomorrow (it's communion day), and I'm in a really difficult situation. There are several questions that popped into my mind:

(1) Is it appropriate to commune with Christians who teach a false, man-centered gospel?

(2) Does communing with other Christians necessarily indicate an agreement in the doctrine of the Gospel?

(3) Should I, instead of communing with heretics, declare "a holy war" against their false teaching?

(4) While we may rightly invite sinners and heretics alike to our own churches, is it right for us to go to their churches to worship "the same God"?

(5) Although in communion we worship God, isn't communion also about unity of Christians in the body of Christ, and therefore, doesn't communion imply peace with others (no place for "a holy war")?

(6) But we are not in peace with heretics, right? That would be compromise, right?

Just some thoughts to feed on.

 

[Skyler]

This begs the question of whether Arminianism is really heresy.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I may be in the minority, but I have to think that Arminianism is not heresy. I can't see how God would use a heretic as His vessel to bring thousands (maybe millions) into His family.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I may be in the minority, but I have to think that Arminianism is not heresy. I can't see how God would use a heretic as His vessel to bring thousands (maybe millions) into His family.

God can use anyone or anything for His glory, even a heretic or a false doctrine. If we acknowledge that God can use even sin to the good of the elect, why not a false gospel? But the question really comes down to this: What is the goal of the preaching of the Gospel? Is it the QUANTITY of professing Christians, or is it the QUALITY of professing Christians? Is it just to make the whole world profess Christ as their Lord and Saviour, or is it to actually SAVE someone? You see, if we use that criteria as a measure, the Arminian gospel and the Arminian with his false doctrine fall right into the category of HERETICS, that is, false teachers who knowingly TRY to lead the sheep their own way, not the way of the Bible -- but in spite of that, God will protect the sheep from the heretics and lead them to the truth. That won't happen, however, without the preaching of the TRUE Gospel! So what's good about communion in a church, where the Gospel is UNHEARD OF?!

 

[jayce475]

I would not worship with them even if Arminianism is not heresy on the basis of 2 Thess 3:6 and 2 Thess 3:14-15. Pentacostalism is too gross an error to accept as a mere denominational distinctive and I would see the need of practising biblical separation so that they may know their error.

 

[Philip]

If God could use Arian missionaries to convert the Goths in the 4th century (and that heresy, arguably, run deeper than mere Arminianism) He can use Arminians in our day. If perfect doctrine is one of the marks of a true church, then there are no true churches. If heretics cannot be saved in spite of their heresy, then we're all damned.

As for myself, tomorrow I plan to receive the Lord's Supper at the local CofE church just up the road. I may not agree with Anglicans on every point of doctrine or polity (thankfully this particular congregation really teaches the Scriptures---classic 39 Articles Anglicanism) but in the end, we are all part of the Church Catholic and one day will worship together.

Samuel, does one war against one's own body? If an Arminian as an Arminian can be saved, then they too are part of the body of Christ. The sacrament acknowledges no denominational boundaries. Does the Arminian preach Christ crucified, buried, and raised for our sins or does he not?

 

[Notthemama1984]

God can use anyone or anything for His glory, even a heretic or a false doctrine. If we acknowledge that God can use even sin to the good of the elect, why not a false gospel? But the question really comes down to this: What is the goal of the preaching of the Gospel? Is it the QUANTITY of professing Christians, or is it the QUALITY of professing Christians? Is it just to make the whole world profess Christ as their Lord and Saviour, or is it to actually SAVE someone? You see, if we use that criteria as a measure, the Arminian gospel and the Arminian with his false doctrine fall right into the category of HERETICS, that is, false teachers who knowingly TRY to lead the sheep their own way, not the way of the Bible -- but in spite of that, God will protect the sheep from the heretics and lead them to the truth. That won't happen, however, without the preaching of the TRUE Gospel! So what's good about communion in a church, where the Gospel is UNHEARD OF?!

Romans 10:14-15 shows that the tool of salvation is men who publish good news and publish salvation. This is such the normative way that Paul asks, "How can believe without these men?"

On the other hand you seem to be advocating that God uses heretics just as often to bring about salvation.

Is Arminianism bad mojo? Absolutely. I don't want you to think otherwise. But because of the salvations that God brings about through Arminian preachers, I cannot label them as heretics.

At one point (I am not sure if this is still the case), the SBC had more missionaries serving abroad than any other denominations. This means that a majority of the churches that are popping up around the world are the fruits of Arminian missionaries. Can you honestly believe that these churches are all just a lie?

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

If God could use Arian missionaries to convert the Goths in the 4th century (and that heresy, arguably, run deeper than mere Arminianism) He can use Arminians in our day. If perfect doctrine is one of the marks of a true church, then there are no true churches. If heretics cannot be saved in spite of their heresy, then we're all damned.

As for myself, tomorrow I plan to receive the Lord's Supper at the local CofE church just up the road. I may not agree with Anglicans on every point of doctrine or polity (thankfully this particular congregation really teaches the Scriptures---classic 39 Articles Anglicanism) but in the end, we are all part of the Church Catholic and one day will worship together.

Samuel, does one war against one's own body? If an Arminian as an Arminian can be saved, then they too are part of the body of Christ. The sacrament acknowledges no denominational boundaries.

It is not about whether God can use somebody or not, it is about whether we preach the same Gospel. There IS a way to distinguish between a false and a true church: WHAT IS THE GOSPEL? The Arminian says: "Jesus died to make our salvation possible." The Calvinist says: "Jesus died to save." How can you reconcile those? That's too much of an error! There has to be a line somewhere! If you can commune with an Arminian, then you probably can commune with a Pelagian, who says Christ gave us only a good example to follow. Or perhaps you could commune with just ANYONE who mentions the name "Christ"? I mean, you must draw a line somewhere and say, "ENOUGH!"

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

But because of the salvations that God brings about through Arminian preachers, I cannot label them as heretics.

So you believe in your own eyes afterall? Do you honestly believe a false gospel produces true converts? Or if what you're saying is that the Arminians are helping the elect to come to some basic understanding of the Scriptures, what is more basic than understanding the true Gospel? And apart from the Gospel nothing benefits! And as I already stated, God can use anyone and anything to promote His salvation -- does that, then, make the means good and acceptable? No.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I believe in my conversion that came about under the preaching of my Arminian father. It isn't an eyeball test.

Is sitting under Arminian teaching the best possible scenario? No. Should we walk on the other side of the street when we see an Arminian coming? No.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I believe in my conversion that came about under the preaching of my Arminian father. It isn't an eyeball test.

Instead of basing your conversion on the facts of the Scripture, you "believe" that you were converted when you heard an Arminian gospel?

To counter your conversion experience:

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Do you honestly believe a false gospel produces true converts?

Absolutely not!

I just don't see Arminians preaching a false gospel. They are preaching Christ and Him crucified. They are preaching that we must have faith in Christ. We strongly disagree on how we get that faith, but it is still faith in Christ.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Do you honestly believe a false gospel produces true converts?

Absolutely not!

I just don't see Arminians preaching a false gospel. They are preaching Christ and Him crucified. They are preaching that we must have faith in Christ. We strongly disagree on how we get that faith, but it is still faith in Christ.

In "Christ" who cannot save without man's help, right?

 

[Notthemama1984]

I believe in my conversion that came about under the preaching of my Arminian father. It isn't an eyeball test.

Instead of basing your conversion on the facts of the Scripture, you "believe" that you were converted when you heard an Arminian gospel?

To counter your conversion experience:

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

Chapter XVIII

Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation[1] (which hope of theirs shall perish):[2] yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace,[3] and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.[4]

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;[5] but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,[6] the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,[7] the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,[8] which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.[9]

I can have the assurance of my salvation. I had that assurance decades before I knew anything about TULIP, predestination, Calvinism, or anything remotely Reformed.

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

This is the same Gospel that I heard proclaimed for the first 24 years of my life. This Gospel was proclaimed through the mouth of an Arminian minister.

---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 PM ----------

Do you honestly believe a false gospel produces true converts?

Absolutely not!

I just don't see Arminians preaching a false gospel. They are preaching Christ and Him crucified. They are preaching that we must have faith in Christ. We strongly disagree on how we get that faith, but it is still faith in Christ.

In "Christ" who cannot save without man's help, right?

I do not know any Arminian who would say that. They all admit that God can save without man's help and in fact proclaim that God has saved us without our help. They are not advocating man adding to God's work. They simply advocate a free will choice of man. This choice does not diminish God's work in the sense that God's hands are tied. This choice was given to us by God. He willfully takes a step back and lets us freely choose.

Again do not misunderstand me. This is a wrong view, but it is not a false Gospel.

 

[Skyler]

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

I have heard that preached in the context of Arminianism.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Is sitting under Arminian teaching the best possible scenario? No. Should we walk on the other side of the street when we see an Arminian coming? No.

I interract with my Arminian family daily in many ways. But to have a good time together, that I cannot. For we preach not the same Christ.

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

I believe in my conversion that came about under the preaching of my Arminian father. It isn't an eyeball test.

Instead of basing your conversion on the facts of the Scripture, you "believe" that you were converted when you heard an Arminian gospel?

To counter your conversion experience:

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

Chapter XVIII

Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation[1] (which hope of theirs shall perish):[2] yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace,[3] and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.[4]

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;[5] but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,[6] the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,[7] the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,[8] which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.[9]

I can have the assurance of my salvation. I had that assurance decades before I knew anything about TULIP, predestination, Calvinism, or anything remotely Reformed.

Great, I did, too. Sadly, my "assurance" turned out to be false assurance.

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

This is the same Gospel that I heard proclaimed for the first 24 years of my life. This Gospel was proclaimed through the mouth of an Arminian minister.

It is one thing to hear it, quite another to understand it.

 

[Michael]

1. Sure
2. No
3. No. Simply set an example and speak the truth in love.
4. Sure. Our own Reformed Churches are far from pure, apart from Christ's blood.
5. Yes
6. Depends how far you are taking this "heretic" thing. If they believe in the essentials of the Gospel, then they are your brothers and sisters in Christ. They may misunderstand and even preach against certain nuances of theology but thanks be to Christ we are not saved by our acute theological prowess.

A child of God may worship him anywhere [and in far worse scenarios than this]. Why wouldn't you do so while visiting with your parents?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I have a question that I would like to pose in this situation. What kind of Pentecostalism is involved? Is it a Trinitarian or Oneness first of all? Do they believe in Salvation by Grace through faith alone? Some have. Do your parents believe in the Trinity and do they believe that Christ died for their sins? Now for the harder question. Does the 5th commandment have any application to this issue?

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I have a question that I would like to pose in this situation. What kind of Pentecostalism is involved? Is it a Trinitarian or Oneness first of all? Do they believe in Salvation by Grace through faith alone? Some have. Do your parents believe in the Trinity and do they believe that Christ died for their sins? Now for the harder question. Does the 5th commandment have any application to this issue?

Trinitarian. Yes to all the rest, plus they believe that Christ died even for their unbelief.

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

I believe I was converted the moment I truly understood the heart of the Gospel -- that I'm truly sinful, that I'm truly dependent on God, that God truly loves and that God truly saves.

I have heard that preached in the context of Arminianism.

As I've already said, "It is one thing to hear it, quite another to understand it." I won't deny that regeneration is possible where the true Gospel is not preached. As to conversion, however, I don't believe the Bible indicates -- and it is not my experience -- that conversion would be possible without true understanding of the Gospel.

I also want to add that of course Arminians want to say, "Christ SAVES!" but you know what they really mean. Their own speech contradicts their beliefs. And so they lead the sheep to a great confusion and misery.

 

[Dearly Bought]

Since Arminian preachers still tend to quote God's Word a fair bit, it is always possible that God will bring about the new birth through His Word not the false gospel of the Arminian preacher. We may see the same thing in Roman Catholic settings at times as well, but this does not justify recognition of Rome as a true church or her gospel as the true gospel.

According to the Canons of Dordt, Arminians "summon back from hell the Pelagian error." A quick perusal reveals that Arminianism is linked to Pelagius several times. Certainly there is no hesitation to apply the nomenclature of "heresy" to Arminianism.

From the Reformation to the present day, Reformed Christians have recognized Arminianism as a dangerous heresy which strikes at the core of the Gospel. Since proclamation of the true Gospel is the primary mark of the true church, we must not recognize Arminian assembles as true congregations of Christ (Gal. 1:6-9). While we should "lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty" (1 Tim. 2:2) in our relations with others, this does not mean that we should participate in false worship. Worship of the true God is not enough to constitute true worship; we must come to the true God through the mediation of Christ Jesus alone (Heb. 13:15). True worship requires a true Gospel, which Arminianism does not have.

R.C. Sproul wrote a piece of remarkable clarity entitled "The Pelagian Captivity of the Church." His words pretty much sum it all up,

This is the issue: Is it a part of God’s gift of salvation, or is it in our own contribution to salvation? Is our salvation wholly of God or does it ultimately depend on something that we do for ourselves? Those who say the latter, that it ultimately depends on something we do for ourselves, thereby deny humanity’s utter helplessness in sin and affirm that a form of semi-Pelagianism is true after all. It is no wonder then that later Reformed theology condemned Arminianism as being, in principle, both a return to Rome because, in effect, it turned faith into a meritorious work, and a betrayal of the Reformation because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the reformers’ thought. Arminianism was indeed, in Reformed eyes, a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favor of New Testament Judaism. For to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle than to rely on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other.

 

[jwithnell]

Another pertinent question: what do they believe regarding the Lord's Table? I would not, for example, take communion in an RC church because I believe their doctrine regarding the sacraments are totally at odds with what the Bible teaches.

I spent several years among Armenians (Independent Baptist, a few with a Mennonite upbringing) when there was no reformed church available. I saw people who loved the Lord and many who were willing to serve Him sacrificially. I had serious differences with them doctrinally and did not think (or act) like our differences regarding baptism, the sovereignty of God, and so forth, were unimportant. But we could unite around Christ and I am convinced many will be with me in heaven.

I'm going to be pretty straight forward here: no one individual can declare another person or church heretical. It is an act of the church. You are not in a position to determine if others are in Christ or not. Due to our fallen minds, I'm certain we will find that some of our reformed doctrine is in error once the darkness of sin has been removed from our eyes. Parts of Christ's body may be more crippled than others, but they are still part of the body if they believe in a triune God who saves through Christ alone and speaks through His Bible only (and authoritatively).

 

[Skyler]

As to conversion, however, I don't believe the Bible indicates -- and it is not my experience -- that conversion would be possible without true understanding of the Gospel.

I agree.

I think where we disagree is the level of understanding that is necessary.

Is it necessary to be able to delineate the five points of Calvinism, or is it sufficient to understand on a basic level that we are sinners, that we need God to deliver us from our sin, and that He offers that deliverance if we repent and believe on Christ?

 

[cih1355]

Does that church preach a false gospel? If it does, then don't go there.

 

[torstar]

I believe in my conversion that came about under the preaching of my Arminian father. It isn't an eyeball test.

Is sitting under Arminian teaching the best possible scenario? No. Should we walk on the other side of the street when we see an Arminian coming? No.

Same here, I was converted under Arminian teaching and attended for decades.

I'm grateful I have parents who are believers, even if they are not Reformed and we won't see eye to eye on every point of doctrine. I have no trouble listening to their pastor's teaching, although I could make a few wishes about future content...

I've also learned that people are not fair to other denoms; I could wish they at least make an attempt to understand before popping off against them. I have been under attack unfairly under both Arminian and Reformed membership, neither set of accusers having a clue.

A shocking remnant will be revealed some day, and a shocking non-remnant will be as well.

 

[MMasztal]

I may be in the minority, but I have to think that Arminianism is not heresy. I can't see how God would use a heretic as His vessel to bring thousands (maybe millions) into His family.

Well, my regeneration occurred as a result of the Bakker/Swaggart scandal. In my opinion, these guys are heretics.

 

[Scott1]

I was invited by my parents to visit their Pentecostal Church tomorrow (it's communion day), and I'm in a really difficult situation. There are several questions that popped into my mind:

(1) Is it appropriate to commune with Christians who teach a false, man-centered gospel?
One needs to be committed and accountable to a covenant community. As a matter of conscience and confession, the doctrine and practice needs to be substantially what you know to be biblically faithful. Not perfect, but substantially, comprehensively biblical.

That doesn't mean the people are perfect, let alone even mature in their understanding. God is always doing growing and sanctifying among His people, at every age and every stage.


(2) Does communing with other Christians necessarily indicate an agreement in the doctrine of the Gospel?

Depends on what is meant by "communing." Corporate worship ought be primarily based on biblical doctrine and practice. Other associations, including friendships are not on the same footing.

(3) Should I, instead of communing with heretics, declare "a holy war" against their false teaching?

Romans 12:19

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.

(4) While we may rightly invite sinners and heretics alike to our own churches, is it right for us to go to their churches to worship "the same God"?

Primarily not, because we understand worship is a serious, important thing to our God. However, I can think of mercy, necessity and even other exceptions. Anecdotal only, E.g. Our Pastor taught in another church that we have associated with on a mercy basis- the service was a combination, both churches inputting- and it was very edifying.

(5) Although in communion we worship God, isn't communion also about unity of Christians in the body of Christ, and therefore, doesn't communion imply peace with others (no place for "a holy war")?

Not sure what you mean.

God has placed us in a catholic (worldwide) Body with lots of people who have some wrong theology. The difficulty is, once you mature to understand that, you don't want to be associated with the confession of that wrong theology, because it displeases our Creator.

(6) But we are not in peace with heretics, right? That would be compromise, right?

Heretic often is understood to one with flagrant, overwhelming, nonredeemable error. One ought generally stay away from confessional association, and even away from the person if they are warned and persist.

Titus 3:10

10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Just some thoughts to feed on.

Remember our Lord's admonition:

I Corinthians 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


and

I Corinthians 5
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


Blessings.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Samuel -

I recommend you go visit your parents' church. It will give them a thrill, enable you to find out what their church is like, and possibly give you a hearing with them if you afterward want to address any concerns.

A few tips:
1. Don't posture yourself as an aloof judge who condescends to observe their heathen rite.
2. You might be pleasantly surprised by a few things - or maybe not - but if you want to address concerns with your parents I suggest that you begin by noting what their church did well.
3. I realize that because we're talking about matters that are of extreme importance that we feel justified - no, COMPELLED! - to use the strongest language possible in our condemnations. But I would encourage you to tone down the rhetoric so as to prevent them from writing you off or becoming defensive.

Just go, sit with mom and dad, glean what you can, and offer winsome and constructive feedback to your folks when it is all said and done.

 

[AThornquist]

Pentecostals are sometimes heretics, but being a Pentecostal does not in itself make you a heretic. There are many Pentecostals, especially in countries other than the US, that are genuinely converted and seeking to glorify God, although aspects of their theology are wrong. Broadly labelling them all as heretics is inaccurate and an offense to some true sheep that Christ died for. Remember that even some people on this board were Pentecostals and regenerate, though they came to a better understanding of the truth and moved away from those forms of theology.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

As to conversion, however, I don't believe the Bible indicates -- and it is not my experience -- that conversion would be possible without true understanding of the Gospel.

I agree.

I think where we disagree is the level of understanding that is necessary.

Is it necessary to be able to delineate the five points of Calvinism, or is it sufficient to understand on a basic level that we are sinners, that we need God to deliver us from our sin, and that He offers that deliverance if we repent and believe on Christ?

I'm not saying true understanding of the Gospel involves complete understanding of TULIP, not at all! You won't be able to see and appreciate God's love in the sufferings of Christ until you understand two things: (1) Christ was not obligated to save you and God was not obligated to love you, (2) you must be convicted of your own sinfulness and perceive yourself as an evil, wicked, vile, disgusting, abhorrent being (the point is: your sinfulness is beyond words).

---------- Post added at 05:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 AM ----------

Those of you who believe an Arminian gospel can actually lead you to true conversion, doesn't that mean that the true Gospel is unnecessary?

Again, my stance is that God may well regenerate people under a false gospel (I believe I was!), but never convert them without the preaching AND understanding of the true Gospel.

---------- Post added at 05:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 AM ----------

I believe there are, at this very moment, numbers of false converts in Arminian churches worldwide, who have been truly regenerated, but who have never heard the true Gospel preached to them. Their new nature makes them uneasy, confused and unsatisfied with the gospel they have received from their Arminian pastors, it can give them no rest. And I believe there are false converts in Reformed churches alike, truly regenerated AND having heard the true Gospel, but having never truly understood it. Even being regenerated and having heard the true Gospel does not always automatically result in conversion. But it is only a matter of time.

 

[kvanlaan]

As mentioned above, I don't think that we can pick and choose who is a heretic, that is for the church to decide. Since the Canons of Dordt plainly teach it to be heresy, if you are a confessing member of a 3FU church, then Arminianism is heresy (last I checked, we don't allow exceptions to confessions in the URC/Dutch reformed churches in general). Some say that it is a different brand of Arminianism, etc. but if so, then call it something different. Isn't today's Arminianism merely a more palatable (less in-your-face blatant) version of the old lie? Its genesis is the same, it's just 'rebranded' for wider consumption and appeal. Should you snub/shun him in a rude way? I don't think so. But nor should you compromise in your beliefs. We were at a friend's place a week ago and they are Copts. While I can accept him blessing the food and eating with him, I could not go to mass at his church. And when it comes to discussion of doctrine, I must firmly hold to my beliefs, even though it may cause awkwardness. We were diametrically opposed on points of theology, and on what basis could I possibly compromise? I must tell the truth, first and foremost. In the same way with an Arminian - when it is a question of salvation, I can't see where anyone on this board would say 'sure, just jump out of the line going to hell and into the line going to heaven, it will be just fine and God will be OK with it'. No, we affirm our beliefs, and hold fast to them, but in a Christlike way.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

As mentioned above, I don't think that we can pick and choose who is a heretic, that is for the church to decide. Since the Canons of Dordt plainly teach it to be heresy, if you are a confessing member of a 3FU church, then Arminianism is heresy (last I checked, we don't allow exceptions to confessions in the URC/Dutch reformed churches in general). Some say that it is a different brand of Arminianism, etc. but if so, then call it something different. Isn't today's Arminianism merely a more palatable (less in-your-face blatant) version of the old lie? Its genesis is the same, it's just 'rebranded' for wider consumption and appeal. Should you snub/shun him in a rude way? I don't think so. But nor should you compromise in your beliefs. We were at a friend's place a week ago and they are Copts. While I can accept him blessing the food and eating with him, I could not go to mass at his church. And when it comes to discussion of doctrine, I must firmly hold to my beliefs, even though it may cause awkwardness. We were diametrically opposed on points of theology, and on what basis could I possibly compromise? I must tell the truth, first and foremost. In the same way with an Arminian - when it is a question of salvation, I can't see where anyone on this board would say 'sure, just jump out of the line going to hell and into the line going to heaven, it will be just fine and God will be OK with it'. No, we affirm our beliefs, and hold fast to them, but in a Christlike way.

Maybe I've used the word "heretic" a little loosely. How do the Reformed standards define a "heretic?" How does a false teacher differ from a heretic?

---------- Post added at 07:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 AM ----------

I was invited by my parents to visit their Pentecostal Church tomorrow (it's communion day), and I'm in a really difficult situation. There are several questions that popped into my mind:

(1) Is it appropriate to commune with Christians who teach a false, man-centered gospel?
One needs to be committed and accountable to a covenant community. As a matter of conscience and confession, the doctrine and practice needs to be substantially what you know to be biblically faithful. Not perfect, but substantially, comprehensively biblical.

That doesn't mean the people are perfect, let alone even mature in their understanding. God is always doing growing and sanctifying among His people, at every age and every stage.


(2) Does communing with other Christians necessarily indicate an agreement in the doctrine of the Gospel?

Depends on what is meant by "communing." Corporate worship ought be primarily based on biblical doctrine and practice. Other associations, including friendships are not on the same footing.

(3) Should I, instead of communing with heretics, declare "a holy war" against their false teaching?

Romans 12:19

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.

(4) While we may rightly invite sinners and heretics alike to our own churches, is it right for us to go to their churches to worship "the same God"?

Primarily not, because we understand worship is a serious, important thing to our God. However, I can think of mercy, necessity and even other exceptions. Anecdotal only, E.g. Our Pastor taught in another church that we have associated with on a mercy basis- the service was a combination, both churches inputting- and it was very edifying.

(5) Although in communion we worship God, isn't communion also about unity of Christians in the body of Christ, and therefore, doesn't communion imply peace with others (no place for "a holy war")?

Not sure what you mean.

God has placed us in a catholic (worldwide) Body with lots of people who have some wrong theology. The difficulty is, once you mature to understand that, you don't want to be associated with the confession of that wrong theology, because it displeases our Creator.

(6) But we are not in peace with heretics, right? That would be compromise, right?

Heretic often is understood to one with flagrant, overwhelming, nonredeemable error. One ought generally stay away from confessional association, and even away from the person if they are warned and persist.

Titus 3:10

10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Just some thoughts to feed on.

Remember our Lord's admonition:

I Corinthians 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


and

I Corinthians 5
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


Blessings.

According to that standard, I should not participate in the service of my parents' church. And I didn't. If a heretic is always to be rejected and not to have fellowship with, and if a heretic is "one with flagrant, overwhelming, nonredeemable error" -- and I think the way how Arminians describe Christ inevitably goes into that category -- then I'll not commune with Arminians, full-stop.