jaybird0827
PuritanBoard Honor Roll
or Nadab and Abihu, for that matter.
"God Bless America" in Worship?
- Thread starter ServantOfKing
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or Nadab and Abihu, for that matter.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
No need to shout at me. Have you ever been wrong?
As for the other dudes...were they singing patriotic songs? If they were, that's news to me.
{Moderating}
Brian, well done, a measured response to a shoot-from -the-lip response.
For everyone, try answering questions in a way that you would appreciate someone answering you, if you gave the question. For everyone here who just "instinctively knew" what reformed worship and the RPW was all about, and never needed a teacher, try to feel for those less fortunate who actually have to study the matter, who barely have any idea there is something historical and exegetical (and not just traditional) about worship.
Brian, well done, a measured response to a shoot-from -the-lip response.
For everyone, try answering questions in a way that you would appreciate someone answering you, if you gave the question. For everyone here who just "instinctively knew" what reformed worship and the RPW was all about, and never needed a teacher, try to feel for those less fortunate who actually have to study the matter, who barely have any idea there is something historical and exegetical (and not just traditional) about worship.
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
Brian,
No one is shouting. Are you familiar with the men from scripture that were noted, namely Uzzah, Nadab, and Abihu? If you knew their stories you would understand the point being made.
I think the issue you are having here is that Reformed Christians have completely different categories than modern Christians. It is quite literally another language and you don't speak it. Therefore like a person in a strange country you don't know the language or customs.
If you stick around and read alot, especially the threads you disagree with or don't see the problem with, you will learn why we seem to have problems with things that are considered completely normal and even celebrated in most modern churches. You will start to see a where we are coming from.
Please be patient and don't assume that everyone is attacking you or out to get you. Ask questions, but don't jump to conclusions because not everything is as it seems.
No one is shouting. Are you familiar with the men from scripture that were noted, namely Uzzah, Nadab, and Abihu? If you knew their stories you would understand the point being made.
I think the issue you are having here is that Reformed Christians have completely different categories than modern Christians. It is quite literally another language and you don't speak it. Therefore like a person in a strange country you don't know the language or customs.
If you stick around and read alot, especially the threads you disagree with or don't see the problem with, you will learn why we seem to have problems with things that are considered completely normal and even celebrated in most modern churches. You will start to see a where we are coming from.
Please be patient and don't assume that everyone is attacking you or out to get you. Ask questions, but don't jump to conclusions because not everything is as it seems.
Actually, Augusta,
If I had to judge, I'd say that blatting out a Bible verse at someone, and following it with an exclamation point, really shouts "you should know better!" I thought it was an inappropriate response to a genuine question.
Brian has been here a couple months now. He's had his share of correction. I thought it was a mature, measured response to a provacative post.
If I had to judge, I'd say that blatting out a Bible verse at someone, and following it with an exclamation point, really shouts "you should know better!" I thought it was an inappropriate response to a genuine question.
Brian has been here a couple months now. He's had his share of correction. I thought it was a mature, measured response to a provacative post.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thank you Bruce, I appreciate that. You were exactly right.
Thank you to the others for your comments as well. Everyone take care, and God bless you. I may not be on much for a week or two. Peace.
Thank you to the others for your comments as well. Everyone take care, and God bless you. I may not be on much for a week or two. Peace.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
p.s. Yes, I'm familiar with the aforementioned people in the Bible. I just didn't think their situation was the same.
ServantOfKing
Puritan Board Freshman
So if I understand right- relating Nadab & Abihu to worship in the church today might lead us to a conclusion like -
Offering something up to God and calling it worship - when it is not what he has prescribed for worship - is not safe nor glorifying to God?
And one of those things that is offered up to God, called worship, and makes God mad might be singing a patriotic song in worship?
Or am I misunderstanding?
Offering something up to God and calling it worship - when it is not what he has prescribed for worship - is not safe nor glorifying to God?
And one of those things that is offered up to God, called worship, and makes God mad might be singing a patriotic song in worship?
Or am I misunderstanding?
Ashley,
Actually, I think there are a couple related, but distinct issues here.
What God disapproves of is our offering up to him something other than he asked for. And he has told us what he wants. So if we offer him something else--a product of our fallen, sinful minds at that--we are basically saying, "God, I hear you, but I think you should take this. It's just as good, in my estimation, maybe better." This is the sin of Cain.
The problem with the "patriotic ditty" (in my opinion) is something else. There is something special, and peculiar, about God's worship. It's meant for him, and him alone. Its partly reflected in the verse: "My glory I will not share with any other" (Is. 42:8). If we conflate our gathering to honor him, and honor others--whether it is a country, a benefactor, mother,--we are guilty of giving "the glory do HIS name" alone (Ps. 29:2) to others.
Now, may we thank God for his mercies on us as a secular people? Yes, and as a hymn-singer, I have no problem with singing. for example, "God of Our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand." Because though it thanks God for his grace on the circumstances of our lives, there is no national pride in it. And there are similar Psalms that speak of God's grace to Israel, although we generally take God's special providence mentioned in them, and dedicate it to recognizing his care for his church.
I hope this is helpful.
Actually, I think there are a couple related, but distinct issues here.
What God disapproves of is our offering up to him something other than he asked for. And he has told us what he wants. So if we offer him something else--a product of our fallen, sinful minds at that--we are basically saying, "God, I hear you, but I think you should take this. It's just as good, in my estimation, maybe better." This is the sin of Cain.
The problem with the "patriotic ditty" (in my opinion) is something else. There is something special, and peculiar, about God's worship. It's meant for him, and him alone. Its partly reflected in the verse: "My glory I will not share with any other" (Is. 42:8). If we conflate our gathering to honor him, and honor others--whether it is a country, a benefactor, mother,--we are guilty of giving "the glory do HIS name" alone (Ps. 29:2) to others.
Now, may we thank God for his mercies on us as a secular people? Yes, and as a hymn-singer, I have no problem with singing. for example, "God of Our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand." Because though it thanks God for his grace on the circumstances of our lives, there is no national pride in it. And there are similar Psalms that speak of God's grace to Israel, although we generally take God's special providence mentioned in them, and dedicate it to recognizing his care for his church.
I hope this is helpful.
ServantOfKing
Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you! That definitely makes sense.
Does this only apply to prescribed worship services? Or does it apply to the church's functions as a whole?
I guess what I am asking is, would it be okay for a church to collectively sing patriotic songs like "God Bless America" and others at a "special service/ performance" as long as it was prefaced that it was more entertainment/celebration and not meant to be a worship service?
Or would that be offering something up to God that does not glorify His name alone since it is the local church doing it?
Does this only apply to prescribed worship services? Or does it apply to the church's functions as a whole?
I guess what I am asking is, would it be okay for a church to collectively sing patriotic songs like "God Bless America" and others at a "special service/ performance" as long as it was prefaced that it was more entertainment/celebration and not meant to be a worship service?
Or would that be offering something up to God that does not glorify His name alone since it is the local church doing it?
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Good Heavens!!! Shame on all of you!!!! By NOT saying the Pledge of Allegiance in church, you people are disrupting vital national unity and diminishing national resolve that is integral to winning the war on terrorism. By your seditious actions, you jeopardize national security, put our troops lives at risk and indeed you imperil the future of the whole human race.
COUGH-COUGH just kidding... I don't believe that either. Besides, the Pledge was written by a socialist Francis Bellamy, and the words are not even accurate. "...one national indivisible..." (???) That's a very nationalistic, post-Lincolnian era quote if you ask me and anathema to the constitutional polity that our forefathers established in 1787, and fought for in 1776.
:bigsmile:
COUGH-COUGH just kidding... I don't believe that either. Besides, the Pledge was written by a socialist Francis Bellamy, and the words are not even accurate. "...one national indivisible..." (???) That's a very nationalistic, post-Lincolnian era quote if you ask me and anathema to the constitutional polity that our forefathers established in 1787, and fought for in 1776.
:bigsmile:
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Pledging Allegiance to the Omnipotent Lincolnian State by Thomas DiLorenzo
What's Conservative about the Pledge of Allegiance? by Gene Healy, Cato Institute
[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Puritanhead]
What's Conservative about the Pledge of Allegiance? by Gene Healy, Cato Institute
[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Puritanhead]
In my estimation, provided the gathering is not intended as a worship gathering, and provided that the gathering is honorable, if a fellowship of covenanting believers gathers for another purpose,--be that a church picnic, or a patriotic assembly--that is not in-and-of itself wrong.
I would offer a caution that regular gatherings that are not mainly fellowship (picnic versus patriotic) ought to be occasional, and not periodic, because such a commitment could easily begin to look like a "club" associated with the church. The purpose for the church could easily become obscured behind a different sort of message. And if you don't attend, does that mean others will think you "don't love the country?"
Christians can be good citizens without wearing their nationality on their sleeve. And the church always needs to be ready instantly to take what appears to be an "unpatriotic" stance any time the "patriotic" expectations run counter to biblical principles. In other words,, never forget where your true allegiance lies.
[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Contra_Mundum]
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
I agree with those who've expressed concerns, on the basis of the RPW, about such practices.
There is another ground, at which some have at least hinted, and that is the use of patriotic songs or symbols in divine worship is a manifest confusion of the two kingdoms, the civil and the ecclesiastical.
Though we are commanded to pray for those in authority, we do not gather on the sabbath, under the Word, as citizens of a particular civil entity, but as citizens of the heavenly kingdom; as citizens of the eternal kingdom, the kingdom of God.
rsc
[Edited on 7-19-2006 by R. Scott Clark]
There is another ground, at which some have at least hinted, and that is the use of patriotic songs or symbols in divine worship is a manifest confusion of the two kingdoms, the civil and the ecclesiastical.
Though we are commanded to pray for those in authority, we do not gather on the sabbath, under the Word, as citizens of a particular civil entity, but as citizens of the heavenly kingdom; as citizens of the eternal kingdom, the kingdom of God.
rsc
[Edited on 7-19-2006 by R. Scott Clark]
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
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