Ammillenialism and the Mark of the Beast.

[pilgrimmum]

Revelations 20 describes the beginning of the Gospel Era where Satan is BOUND by a mighty Angel a 1000 yrs FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS.. This 1000 yrs symbolizes the reign of Jesus Christ on the earth from the time of His Resurrection and ascension and the spread of the Gospel to all the nations of the earth. I believe we are in the "SHORT SEASON" of Satan having been LOOSED and are now experiencing his satanic chaos in the world.. To me this is exceedingly obvious. Satan was bound in order for the nations to be evangelized and become Christian. By nations becoming Christian I mean their leaders, constitutions and monarchies taking on Biblical Christianity and it's principles, laws and statutes as their foundation for their governments, societies and churches. This is also exceedingly obvious to me that this happened during the course of the last 2000 years of the reign of Christ. Of course not every member of those nations may be Christian but that is not what the text says. It says "the nations ( Gk ethnos). Also the Holy Roman Empire does not count for the Christianizing of the Nations as it persecuted to death most true Christians. Celtic and Ancient Christianity besides many other Christian groups were alive and well during the Dark Ages ( .....rumble of the Revisionists I hear)

During Satan's short season of being loosed ( prob started as early as 1850 with the Age of Enlightenment) he will go out to DECEIVE the NATIONS once more! This I observe is EXCEEDINGLY OBVIOUS! The NATIONS are being EXCEEDINGLY DECEIVED. Wow how blind can one be not to see that! Christians who are bemoaning our status and looking to the latest book, sermon or leader to point the way should look to the scriptures for clarity as well to the current state of affairs which is absolutely ghastly! When Satan during this short season goes out to gather the enemies of God to come up on the breadth of the earth ( Rev 20"7-9) and surround the Camp of the Saints, Fire shall come down from heaven from God and shall destroy them! Jesus Christ will then return with the host of heaven and the sound of the trumpet and the voice of the archangel and we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye ( new bodies) and shall be caught up to the Lord, The Christian dead will be raised too with new bodies to be with the Lord. The heavens shall be rolled back like a scroll and the earth shall be burnt up with fire ( 2 Peter 3) and a new heaven and a new earth created and the judgment will begin of all the dead. The righteous shall go into eternal life and the unsaved into the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels, hell, the grave and death. The New Jerusalem, our dwelling place forever descends upon the New Earth. There shall be no more sun or moon or sea and God and the Lamb will be the the LIGHT of this new earth. Death and tears and sad memories will be gone forever. So when you see these things we now see happening ie. Satans loosing LOOK UP dear
Christian for your REDEMPTION draws near!

I posted the above post a while back not realising there was a specific place to discuss this subject. Just to add further to this I firmly believe the current worldwide Genetically altering medical intervention so called a 'vaccine' appears to be displaying all the characteristics of the 'Mark of the Beast'. In traditional Amill frameworks this mark is relegated to a past event in history ( something to do with a pope and famine ect somewhere ect). However this has never fully satisfied me. The Jab is being mandated here in Australia to a severe degree. Hundreds of thousands are out of work ( including tens of thousands doctors, dentists, nurses and paramedics, teachers ect due to their refusal to take an untested experimental jab with no safety data. Now the boosters are being mandated, and the Australian government has 7 boosters lined up for every citizen apparently already purchased. Talk is of getting a booster every 3 months. The hospitals are full of vaccine injured victims and the death rate has gone up 25% in 10 months. Myocarditis ,Pericarditis and heart attacks have sky-rocketed in young males. I realise this is a HOT TOPIC. I wonder how much censorship exists within Christian circles with freedom to discuss these incredibly traumatising and world changing events in relation to biblical prophecy. As this situation develops with now the talk being our bank accounts will not be able to be accessed if we aren't vaxxed, medical care is being restricted, centrelink pensions cancelled, patients with Covid being offered euthanasia and even doctors being given the power to decide for the patient regarding euthanasia things are looking darker and darker each day. Now they want our children vaxxed starting with 5 to.11 yr olds and then newborn to 4. 12 to 18 yr olds started back in August /September. I am firmly convinced there's no turning back as the New World Order comes surging in. We have all been watching its gradual implementation for decades have we not? Should we be surprised? So yes, here's a hot topic as part of the discussion. I'm fully aware many are vaxxed and I am not condemning these folks. I'm definitely not condemning them to hell. I'm just raising the question. Quite often things iike prophecy fulfilling itself doesn't fit into our neat little boxes we construct. Well God bless you all folks vaxxed and unvaxxed.

 

[jwithnell]

The scriptures repeatedly tell us that we do not know the time and hour of Christ's return (Matt 24:36f among others) so I'd be cautious about terms such as "exceedingly obvious."

Now to moderate:
If anyone wishes to discuss these passages using sound principles of exegesis, please do so. If you wish to discuss covid vaccinations, please go to the appropriate forum.

 

[RamistThomist]

Amillennial here. I, too, believe the Beast/Man of Sin is future. Don't believe it is Covid vax, though. I believe the nations being held back refers not to Satan not being able to deceive anyone right now, but rather that Satan/Man of Sin/whomever will not be able to lead a unified assault on spiritual Mt Zion.

 

[RamistThomist]

The weakness in amill that always kept me from it was the obvious fact that Satan is deceiving the nations right now. You can't have Rev 20 recap the events in Rev. 12-14 w/o having a formal contradiction on Satan's being bound. Following Kline and Heiser, I see the "being bound" referring to the final assault on Mt Zion.

 

[pilgrimmum]

As I see it Rev 20:1 would refer to Satan being bound by Christ at the cross. Christ destroyed the works of the devil and took captivity captive giving gifts unto men. He won the victory over sin and death. Though Satan is still active, Christ has all authority and power and Satan is BOUND from DECEIVING THE NATIONS during the Gospel Millennium. AD 30 to possibly 1850 or 1920s or even 1960's? A small season compared to 2000 years could be 150 years! . This means despite persecution the Gospel spreads all over the earth. When he is LOOSED Satan goes out to DECEIVE THE NATIONS once more!.

 

[pilgrimmum]

Amillennial here. I, too, believe the Beast/Man of Sin is future. Don't believe it is Covid vax, though. I believe the nations being held back refers not to Satan not being able to deceive anyone right now, but rather that Satan/Man of Sin/whomever will not be able to lead a unified assault on spiritual Mt Zion.

As a true Ammillenialist/ Historicist I would think one would have to recognise the Pope of Rome/Papacy as the man of sin. He's been deceiving the world for a long time already.

 

[Eyedoc84]

I don’t interpret Revelation with a newspaper.

 

[RamistThomist]

As a true Ammillenialist/ Historicist I would think one would have to recognise the Pope of Rome/Papacy as the man of sin. He's been deceiving the world for a long time already.

There are some difficulties in that claim. Jesus reveals a cluster of conditions that must happen before his return (Matt. 24:27, 30). If this cluster happens in proximity to the Lord’s return, then both partial preterism and historicism are ruled out. Historicism is ruled out because the birthing metaphor suggests proximity to that generation.

If the abomination of desolation was Titus's entering the Temple, as many historicists and preterists claim, then that should have started the Great Tribulation (however we gloss that). And since the Tribulation is cut short by the Lord's appearing, that means we are experiencing persecution today because of Titus's actions in 70 AD.

 

[Phil D.]

Just to add further to this I firmly believe the current worldwide Genetically altering medical intervention so called a 'vaccine' appears to be displaying all the characteristics of the 'Mark of the Beast'

Well, if that's the case then hundreds of millions of Christians have unwittingly accepted the mark of the beast - which is a theological absurdity and entirely unscriptural proposition.

Also, I'm not an admin, but it would be good if you would observe the proper signature requirements for the board...

 

[Vernon]

Cyprian of Carthage (mid 3rd-century) also believed the end was near, and would be concurrent with the return of Jesus. He was not pre-millennial, as there had not as yet been enough time pass since Jesus was yet in his earthly ministry for such a perspective in time to have developed.

Cyprian was not alone. Belief that Jesus would return soon was prevalent — and I would say for good reason, considering our limited human perspective. I myself would probably have believed as well in an imminent return.

Cyprian and many other Christians of his day believed in an immediate return for many reasons. The main reason was persecution. Other bishops, believers, and fellow-confessors were subject to abuse, and often extreme persecution. It might mean prison, ostracization, confiscation of goods, death, or banishment to copper mines to be worked to death, to confess faith in Christ.

Additionally, belief in an imminent return was spurred by reasons extraneous to confession. There were continual wars, and rumors of wars. There was economic depression. There were plagues, some that decimated up to a third of certain populated areas. I might mention that Christians were often blamed for certain problems because their refusal to worship the gods brought on what was believed to be retaliation by the gods.

In short, those who insist that Jesus must be returning soon because of their interpretation of current events would do well to consider that today’s conditions are less severe (overall) than they have been in the past, especially, but not limited to the era of Cyprian.

I believe in a possible return of our Lord at any minute. It is part of my hope that is an anchor of the soul. I look forward to his return, I long for it. Should that great day not occur for an additional two thousand years, however, I will love and serve him still, with the same fervor.

 

[pilgrimmum]

The scriptures repeatedly tell us that we do not know the time and hour of Christ's return (Matt 24:36f among others) so I'd be cautious about terms such as "exceedingly obvious."

Now to moderate:
If anyone wishes to discuss these passages using sound principles of exegesis, please do so. If you wish to discuss covid vaccinations, please go to the appropriate forum.

The Lord tells us Acts 1:

Amillennial here. I, too, believe the Beast/Man of Sin is future. Don't believe it is Covid vax, though. I believe the nations being held back refers not to Satan not being able to deceive anyone right now, but rather that Satan/Man of Sin/whomever will not be able to lead a unified assault on spiritual Mt Zion.

I believe what the majority of the Reformers taught concerning the 'man of sin and Antichrist ' in that it is the Pope of Rome and the Papacy. Futurism (Jesuit- Francis Ribera 1585 ), and Preterism (Jesuit- Luis De Alcazar 1620 ) have done their jobs well in eliminating what the Reformers taught.

 

[RamistThomist]

The Lord tells us Acts 1:

I believe what the majority of the Reformers taught concerning the 'man of sin and Antichrist ' in that it is the Pope of Rome and the Papacy. Futurism (Jesuit- Francis Ribera 1585 ), and Preterism (Jesuit- Luis De Alcazar 1620 ) have done their jobs well in eliminating what the Reformers taught.

That doesn't actually deal with the arguments I made. In fact, it is a genetic fallacy.

 

[Andrew35]

Well, if that's the case then hundreds of millions of Christians have unwittingly accepted the mark of the beast - which is a theological absurdity and entirely unscriptural proposition.

Agreed.

And what about if they've vaxed their kids who didn't have any choice? "Sorry, buddy. You're a covenant child, but you've been unwillingly recruited to Satan's team. Nothing to do for it but call on the rocks and all that."

 

[pilgrimmum]

The weakness in amill that always kept me from it was the obvious fact that Satan is deceiving the nations right now. You can't have Rev 20 recap the events in Rev. 12-14 w/o having a formal contradiction on Satan's being bound. Following Kline and Heiser, I see the "being bound" referring to the final assault on Mt Zion.

I see that as the strength of Ammillenialism. Looking back to our social and religious literature and history of even the 1950s or 60's shows the incredible changes in our society from a predominantly Christian influenced society to a secular society. Just looking at Census figures show us that. Again Revelations is not a Chronological timeline per se. Rev 12 shows the beginning of the Christian Era. Rev 13 the rise of the papacy ect. Rev 20 is a complete overview from the beginning of the Christian era until the end when God destroys his enemies (with fire from heaven!) who are surrounding the people of God, the Resurrection ( one and only physical resurrection ) , and the Day of judgment.

 

[pilgrimmum]

I don’t interpret Revelation with a newspaper.

Neither do I but diligent searching of the scriptures, commentaries and historical facts can point us in the right direction.

 

[pilgrimmum]

There are some difficulties in that claim. Jesus reveals a cluster of conditions that must happen before his return (Matt. 24:27, 30). If this cluster happens in proximity to the Lord’s return, then both partial preterism and historicism are ruled out. Historicism is ruled out because the birthing metaphor suggests proximity to that generation.

If the abomination of desolation was Titus's entering the Temple, as many historicists and preterists claim, then that should have started the Great Tribulation (however we gloss that). And since the Tribulation is cut short by the Lord's appearing, that means we are experiencing persecution today because of Titus's actions in 70 AD.

There is some confusion over Matt 24. It appears Jesus was forecasting destruction and doom for the Jewish nation as he warns them of the sign they should be watching for in order to flee "When you the army surrounding the city". History records Titus with his army appeared a good 18 mths before to surround the city but was called away to another assignment. This gave all the disciples a good amount of time to get out which history records they all did to the City of Pella. The Tribulation upon the Jewish nation was truly terrible according to Josephus account. Parents eating their own children, daily murders and thefts ect. A million Jews thereabouts died and a million thereabouts enslaved was the result. The Lord appearing could easily be the end of this age or it could be a metaphysical appearing as in judgment upon the Jewish nation. Does Matt 24 encapsulate the entire 2000 period of the Christ's present reign? Possibly not. We have Revelations, Daniel , 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 2 Peter and other scriptures to give us plenty of clues as well.

 

[pilgrimmum]

Agreed.

And what about if they've vaxed their kids who didn't have any choice? "Sorry, buddy. You're a covenant child, but you've been unwillingly recruited to Satan's team. Nothing to do for it but call on the rocks and all that."

The Bible does talk about a great snare and deception coming upon the earth in the last days , so great that even the elect may be deceived but they won't be. Matt 24:24 . The whole world seem to be placing their full trust and belief in the 'State' as a virtual God in regards to the Covid Pandemic. There happens to be a sizeable few million of us who believe otherwise and understand they are blatantly lying and deceiving the entire world.

 

[Andrew35]

The Bible does talk about a great snare and deception coming upon the earth in the last days , so great that even the elect may be deceived but they won't be. Matt 24:24 . The whole world seem to be placing their full trust and belief in the 'State' as a virtual God in regards to the Covid Pandemic. There happens to be a sizeable few million of us who believe otherwise and understand they are blatantly lying and deceiving the entire world.

So I'm not quite getting the connection you see between the vaccine and the mark of the beast: is this a 1:1 correlation to you?

That is, are you implying that someone who is vaccinated is not one of the elect? Because I have a huge problem with that.

Please clarify.

 

[pilgrimmum]

I must admit this seems to be quite an extreme position but we seem to be in a very extreme situation. Basically the entire world is under the power of a certain group of people (BIG PHARMA CARTEL) who are causing governments to enact mandates that are literally taking away people's rights to earn a living. And its not stopping. Its just getting more and more extreme. Now they have legislation here in Australia that can arrest and detain unvaxxed people and detain them in quarantine camps indefinitely! In Austria every unvaxxed person must pay a fine or else go to jail. And this is an entire world controlling system that controls world health, world finances and dictates policy and decisions it appears to every country in the world. This sort of control has never happened before in the history of the world or possibly on a smaller scale eg 4 world empires of Daniel 2 and the Kingdom of God subsequently filling the earth. I don't see this Plandemic ending unless Jesus returns and destroys Gods enemies ( and ours atm). The governments of the world have become the peoples enemies.

 

[pilgrimmum]

The scriptures repeatedly tell us that we do not know the time and hour of Christ's return (Matt 24:36f among others) so I'd be cautious about terms such as "exceedingly obvious."

Now to moderate:
If anyone wishes to discuss these passages using sound principles of exegesis, please do so. If you wish to discuss covid vaccinations, please go to the appropriate forum.

I agree no-man knows the hour or day of Christ's return except the Father. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for not seeing the 'signs of the times' however. And in Matt 24 Jesus points out a specific sign the disciples are to look for in order to make their escape ( "when you see the armies surrounding Jerusalem") and history records their flight and complete deliverance as a Christian body to Pella in the Judean mountains. Again the Tribe of Issachar were commended for their understanding when Saul was about to lose the Kingship and David was about to take it. Revelations was written to show us things which must shortly come to pass. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:18 promises a blessing to those who hear the words of the book of Revelation. The Thessalonians were comforted and warned by Paul that the Resurrection would not come until the great falling away had come first and the man of sin would arise from within the church. ( perfectly describes the pope) Paul had to speak in code but of course they all knew the Roman Empire was destined to fall ( what withholder that he might be revealed in his time) and the Kingdom of God to triumph from Dan 2, and Dan 7:13 as well of course from Christ's own teaching. A few hundred years Paul's prophetic instruction came to pass with the rise of the papacy and the gradual falling away from pure Christianity as Roman Catholicism was born. And though Jesus said in Acts 1 in response to the Apostles question " Lord, shall you restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?" he did not dismiss their question or say no but pointed them in the direction of world evangelisation. He continued to hold to his teaching on the Kingdom that it would work like yeast works throughout bread, meaning it's spread throughout the earth. It would in time cause the mighty Roman Empire to topple ( influenced by other factors we know). All scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16-17.

 

[pilgrimmum]

Cyprian of Carthage (mid 3rd-century) also believed the end was near, and would be concurrent with the return of Jesus. He was not pre-millennial, as there had not as yet been enough time pass since Jesus was yet in his earthly ministry for such a perspective in time to have developed.

Cyprian was not alone. Belief that Jesus would return soon was prevalent — and I would say for good reason, considering our limited human perspective. I myself would probably have believed as well in an imminent return.

Cyprian and many other Christians of his day believed in an immediate return for many reasons. The main reason was persecution. Other bishops, believers, and fellow-confessors were subject to abuse, and often extreme persecution. It might mean prison, ostracization, confiscation of goods, death, or banishment to copper mines to be worked to death, to confess faith in Christ.

Additionally, belief in an imminent return was spurred by reasons extraneous to confession. There were continual wars, and rumors of wars. There was economic depression. There were plagues, some that decimated up to a third of certain populated areas. I might mention that Christians were often blamed for certain problems because their refusal to worship the gods brought on what was believed to be retaliation by the gods.

In short, those who insist that Jesus must be returning soon because of their interpretation of current events would do well to consider that today’s conditions are less severe (overall) than they have been in the past, especially, but not limited to the era of Cyprian.

I believe in a possible return of our Lord at any minute. It is part of my hope that is an anchor of the soul. I look forward to his return, I long for it. Should that great day not occur for an additional two thousand years, however, I will love and serve him still, with the same fervor.

I honestly believe there is no way our earth could continue on for another 2000 years. Our society has degenerated to such a degree that that scenario seems to be an huge impossibility. We may be better off materially at this point in history but our society is a lot worse off spiritually. Abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, child and human trafficking, political corruption, decline in Christian belief and practice, huge rise in New Age religions and Witchcraft and political correctness in every area of modern life has muzzled the power of the church to even speak for fear of fines and jail. This is is not an exaggeration. The Lord said he would do a short work on the earth. I'm sure Cyprian of Carthage could not have forseen the next 2000 years of the spread of the Gospel all over the earth. And indeed if you were undergoing such persecution perhaps that would be a natural reaction. Down through history people have predicted Christ's return. Its looking closer than ever to me.

 

[pilgrimmum]

That doesn't actually deal with the arguments I made. In fact, it is a genetic fallacy.

"The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context."
You could be right in the context I made the statement. However I was just stating what group I agreed with in my belief of who I think the antichrist is. In order to support my statement I would necessarily have to bring to the table facts and scriptures to support that statement which I can do. I like this list of statements by our most illustrious Reformation leaders https://www.challies.com/articles/a-cloud-of-witnesses/. One in particular grabs me by Charles Spurgeon

Charles Spurgeon: “It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description.”

That doesn't actually deal with the arguments I made. In fact, it is a genetic fallacy.

 

[RamistThomist]

Not sure what the Pope has to do with enforcing Covid vaccines, which would seem to be the case if he is Antichrist AND vax is mark of the beast, if indeed that is your position.

 

[jwithnell]

I agree no-man knows the hour or day of Christ's return except the Father. Jesus does condemn the Pharisees for not seeing the 'signs of the times' however. And in Matt 24 Jesus points out a specific sign the disciples are to look for in order to make their escape ( "when you see the armies surrounding Jerusalem") and history records their flight and complete deliverance as a Christian body to Pella in the Judean mountains. Again the Tribe of Issachar were commended for their understanding when Saul was about to lose the Kingship and David was about to take it. Revelations was written to show us things which must shortly come to pass. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:18 promises a blessing to those who hear the words of the book of Revelation. The Thessalonians were comforted and warned by Paul that the Resurrection would not come until the great falling away had come first and the man of sin would arise from within the church. ( perfectly describes the pope) Paul had to speak in code but of course they all knew the Roman Empire was destined to fall ( what withholder that he might be revealed in his time) and the Kingdom of God to triumph from Dan 2, and Dan 7:13 as well of course from Christ's own teaching. A few hundred years Paul's prophetic instruction came to pass with the rise of the papacy and the gradual falling away from pure Christianity as Roman Catholicism was born. And though Jesus said in Acts 1 in response to the Apostles question " Lord, shall you restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?" he did not dismiss their question or say no but pointed them in the direction of world evangelisation. He continued to hold to his teaching on the Kingdom that it would work like yeast works throughout bread, meaning it's spread throughout the earth. It would in time cause the mighty Roman Empire to topple ( influenced by other factors we know). All scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16-17.

Read carefully through Mark and the first chapter of Acts and you will see the disciples, religious leaders, and Roman leaders failing to see the Messiah standing among them and misunderstanding the connection between Jesus and the temple. Right until the ascension, people were expecting an earthly deliverance and totally missing that Christ had ushered in the new covenant, the promise of which now extends to the ends of the earth.

Much of what you and others with similar eschatology write is so very western-centric. In your bid to pin the antichrist onto a single individual you skip right over the way the church extended from Britain to India in those first few hundred years of the church. You bounce right past the great men of the faith from places like Alexandia, Constantinople, and Antioch, locations that would challenge the Roman bishop's authority to this day. If the pope is the antichrist (note my alignment with the American WCF) are the dear brothers suffering in Afghanistan, China, North Korea, etc. somehow outside its grasp? Is the debauchery in the modern western world worse that what the early church experienced under Rome, or what missionaries to China under Japanese occupation endured? Or has the church always had to struggle to advance the gospel against the forces of evil that have now truly been vanquished, but not yet?

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I honestly believe there is no way our earth could continue on for another 2000 years. Our society has degenerated to such a degree that that scenario seems to be an huge impossibility. We may be better off materially at this point in history but our society is a lot worse off spiritually. Abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, child and human trafficking, political corruption, decline in Christian belief and practice, huge rise in New Age religions and Witchcraft and political correctness in every area of modern life has muzzled the power of the church to even speak for fear of fines and jail. This is is not an exaggeration. The Lord said he would do a short work on the earth. I'm sure Cyprian of Carthage could not have forseen the next 2000 years of the spread of the Gospel all over the earth. And indeed if you were undergoing such persecution perhaps that would be a natural reaction. Down through history people have predicted Christ's return. Its looking closer than ever to me.

I agree with you that we are in a remarkable global situation where the evil of an attempted casting off of God, a spiritual blindness and darkness, has descended upon the once Christianized west. But you shouldn’t lose sight that this overthrow is only “attempted” (Psalm 2), and in the past God has overthrown those rebellious kings and rulers and their governments, and out of darkness has brought the light of reformation once again.

Jesus taught us to patiently watch and specifically what to pray, to pray in faith and expectation that laborers be sent into the harvest, that his name be hallowed, that his kingdom come and his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Yes, we pray for Christ’s return but also know that he’s working out his decrees and they are secret from us. So it’s better that we confess our lack of knowledge concerning the timing of his coming, and focus our prayers and work on the tasks he’s given us according to our places and stations in life.

We may yet have another global upheaval upon us, with wars and rumors of war (the world has had quite a few of these!); out of which God will yet bring another day dawning of reformation to his church. We should pray for this, as we are commanded. Perhaps someone like @Ed Walsh can provide us a good list of those Scripture directives for prayer along these lines.

 

[Vernon]

I honestly believe there is no way our earth could continue on for another 2000 years. Our society has degenerated to such a degree that that scenario seems to be an huge impossibility. We may be better off materially at this point in history but our society is a lot worse off spiritually. Abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, child and human trafficking, political corruption, decline in Christian belief and practice, huge rise in New Age religions and Witchcraft and political correctness in every area of modern life has muzzled the power of the church to even speak for fear of fines and jail. This is is not an exaggeration. The Lord said he would do a short work on the earth. I'm sure Cyprian of Carthage could not have forseen the next 2000 years of the spread of the Gospel all over the earth. And indeed if you were undergoing such persecution perhaps that would be a natural reaction. Down through history people have predicted Christ's return. Its looking closer than ever to me.

Whether or not society is worse spiritually is subjective. God alone is capable of making that judgment. Personally, I’m not so sure. In the Roman world, a father had the legal authority to kill his child up to the age of twelve: please compare that to the atrocity of abortion. Homosexuality had been encouraged by Alexander with his troops and was very much alive in the Hellenistic culture of Rome. Transgenderism was hailed as a sacred rite in many heathen worship forms. Human trafficking was openly practiced, without need for secrecy. Sale of children for abuse was part of the economy in the Graeco-Roman world.

Do I need to continue? Political corruption was not so much as debated or investigated— it was a way of life. As to the decline of Christian values, they had not yet experienced a rise in society, let alone had time for decline. New Age religion/witchcraft — the populace lived by those. Fines and jail: were not Christians flogged, tortured, and banished to death in the mines?

Do not forget that the Thessalonian church of the first century had some members led astray with belief in the imminent return of Jesus. And please note (from the sacred text) that their misspent eschatology created a condition that required the rebuke of the Apostle.

We are best off leaving the return of Jesus in the hands of the Father.

 

[pilgrimmum]

I would have to disagree with you regarding the Apostles that they didn't understand Jesus was the Messiah. Andrew rushes to find his brother Peter (John 1:41) "we have found the Messiah!" They were all following him because they believed he was the Messiah of Israel. "Blessed are you, for to you have been given the mysteries of the Kingdom" Jesus said to them and "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God!" Came Peters reply to Jesus question.
The temple connection was a spiritual revelation of course for the disciples that could probably only ever come after the event. The Jewish leaders were spiritually blind and deaf and the Roman leaders possibly admitted more than the Jewish leaders that Jesus was a spiritual teacher, leader and healer of the common people. They could see the jealousy of the Sanhedrin against Jesus and their fear of losing their positions under Roman rule. Pontius Pilot was convinced of his innocence but sold out to the mob under pressure. The Disciples were expecting Christ to restore the Kingdom according to all the messianic prophecies of the OT not realising this Kingdom was going to be a worldwide Kingdom based on the spiritually life changing power of the Gospel!. Jesus did not say the Kingdom would not be restored to them but rather they were not to know the times and seasons regarding this event. He directed their gaze away from the land of Judea to the evangelization of the whole world! Nevertheless we know as history shows us the spread and development of the Christian world first became centred around the Roman and Greek speaking world of the time. In time the beginnings of the European nations that arose from the ruins of the Roman Empire formed the cradle of Christian civilisation. We speak of Western Civilisation as 'Christendom' for it is where the bulk of the Christian world lived and where the 2 most dominant Christian power structures developed ie. the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy. These 2 Churches were at one time a single united church which arose from the fall of the Roman Empire and it is impossible to minimize their significance when speaking of their religious and political influence in world history and upon the peoples of the entire world. The Celtic Church in Britain and Ireland remained beyond their influence for a time until Augustine of Canterbury was sent to demand their obeisance to Rome in 600 AD which did not come without a struggle (1100 AD saw their final subjugation to Rome until the Reformation. The Orthodox Churches remained aloof from Rome for centuries but Rome's agenda was always to bring all back under her mantle and this they have in large part succeeded through the World Council of Churches and their movement for "Unity".
God cares very deeply for our poor persecuted brethren in China, Afghanistan and North Korea and we must keep them in prayer. Their testimony astounds and encourages us and humbles us all to do better and live more fully for Christ. I'm in no way minimizing their Christian witness and testimony. However in the scheme of things and biblical prophecy the antichrist arises from the false church called "Mystery Babylon" which is Roman Catholicism. This Roman Catholicism is not only a church but a political entity or country as well! It is Church and State unified, a political power! It is the religious version of the Roman Empire recast in Christian costume or appearance!
..The scriptures show the man of sin or Antichrist arises from within this Church or 'Temple' or 'Body' of Christ. He abrogates to himself God's own titles and claims complete power and control over all men , their souls, goods and countries including their governments, princes and kings. Scripture shows no one on earth will be out of the grasp of the antichrist or 'beast' of Revelation. Rev 13:16-17 He causeth 'all ' both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads . And that no man might buy or sell, save he had the Mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
it appears to some well studied in the subject we are under a WORLDWIDE PAPAL EDICT at the moment and this EDICT is the FORCED COVID VAX MANDATE upon ALL HUMANITY! There will be NO BUYING OR SELLING UNLESS YOU TAKE IT. And continue to take it for the rest of our miserable lives if we live that long. We "watch and pray" as Jesus told us to do, with eyes wide open watching the beast system arise in awesome power. " Who can make war with the beast"? Come quickly Lord Jesus Come is our prayer!

 

[Ed Walsh]

I don’t interpret Revelation with a newspaper.

I don't interpret it at all.

We may yet have another global upheaval upon us, with wars and rumors of war (the world has had quite a few of these!); out of which God will yet bring another day dawning of reformation to his church. We should pray for this, as we are commanded. Perhaps someone like @Ed Walsh can provide us a good list of those Scripture directives for prayer along these lines.

I can help, but working since early this AM on a deadline. Remind me if I don't get back by end of day.

Ed

 

[MountainPilgrim]

I think it does us well in the west to be reminded that our peaceful and free way of life is in fact the anomaly in the grand scheme of human history, rather than the norm.

Tyranny is a natural and common consequence of Original Sin, and as such is evil and should be resisted, but I do not believe we should so quickly interpret redemptive history through our own subjective experiences every time tyranny rears its ugly head.

Yet even if this is the end or what have you, should we not then rejoice in the imminent return of our Lord? I never understood the fear and dread and trepidation that comes from those speculating the closeness of Christ's return. If you are so convinced that the Day of Judgment is rapidly approaching, praise God and joyfully cling to the Promise that will carry you through.

 

[MountainPilgrim]

That is, are you implying that someone who is vaccinated is not one of the elect? Because I have a huge problem with that.

Please clarify.

I would also appreciate a clear and unambiguous response to Andrew's question.