Are we called to save the world?

[THE W]

Are we called to eradicate hunger, poverty, and injustice?

Are we called to take back the government and the school system for Jesus by reforming the political and social landscape?

Should we be working hard towards world peace and ending war?


Does scripture tell us to fervently pursue these goals?

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Yes and no. Certainly the church should be involved in feeding the poor and certainly the church should be a voice of truth, but we must also remember that our kingdom is not of this world. There will be no end to war or sin or injustice until Christ returns, and so while it is true that we should work to help the victims of all the things you mentioned, we would only be fooling ourselves if we thought that we could end these things.

 

[THE W]

I look at it like this,

The world is the titanic. Its sinking and its going to go under. Our job is to get as many people off the sinking ship as possible, not so much to stop the ship from sinking.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

Are we called to eradicate hunger, poverty, and injustice?

Are we called to take back the government and the school system for Jesus by reforming the political and social landscape?

Should we be working hard towards world peace and ending war?


Does scripture tell us to fervently pursue these goals?

This can be a difficult question because it ultimately comes back to one's eschatalogical view. I am postmill, which means I believe that the world will be Christianized one day. An important note, however, is that this is not accomplished through social or political means. This is accomplished through the sound preaching of the gospel and the regeneration of souls through the Holy Spirit. We are not meant to "take back the...school system for Jesus," though. The school system itself is based upon a completely unbiblical notion that the government should be involved in education, which the Bible does not give the authority for them to do it. Parents have the responsibility to educate their children, not governments.

So Christians need to know and have a biblical worldview of government, education, etc. which they can implement when we become a covenanted Christian nation. But undoubtedly every nation is called to submit to Christ as King (Psalm 2). Our goal is not to end poverty and war, but these will be side effects of the gospel changing the lives of people and nations.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

I look at it like this,

The world is the titanic. Its sinking and its going to go under. Our job is to get as many people off the sinking ship as possible, not so much to stop the ship from sinking.

This is almost the exact analogy taught by dispensationalism, which is clearly unbiblical. God's plan in redemption was not to snatch a few people from the fire, but to put all enemies under Christ's feet that He may have the full reward for His suffering. A reading of the parables as taught by Christ show that God's kingdom may start small like a mustard seed or leaven, but through the preaching of the gospel it will grow until the world is Christianized. Christ pictures the world as a wheat field (representing Christians) - not a tare field (representing non-Christians). Old Testament prophesies also picture the mountain of Christ encompassing the whole world. The church will not end in failure and dismal destruction like Israel did. There's really so much that could be said here, but I think you get the idea.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

It's Christ who will save the world, not us. But He will accomplish this by means of preaching His Gospel.

 

[THE W]

I look at it like this,

The world is the titanic. Its sinking and its going to go under. Our job is to get as many people off the sinking ship as possible, not so much to stop the ship from sinking.

This is almost the exact analogy taught by dispensationalism, which is clearly unbiblical. God's plan in redemption was not to snatch a few people from the fire, but to put all enemies under Christ's feet that He may have the full reward for His suffering. A reading of the parables as taught by Christ show that God's kingdom may start small like a mustard seed or leaven, but through the preaching of the gospel it will grow until the world is Christianized. Christ pictures the world as a wheat field (representing Christians) - not a tare field (representing non-Christians). Old Testament prophesies also picture the mountain of Christ encompassing the whole world. The church will not end in failure and dismal destruction like Israel did. There's really so much that could be said here, but I think you get the idea.

It's Christ who will save the world, not us. But He will accomplish this by means of preaching His Gospel.

which is what the anology means.

 

[THE W]

We are not meant to "take back the...school system for Jesus," though. The school system itself is based upon a completely unbiblical notion that the government should be involved in education, which the Bible does not give the authority for them to do it. Parents have the responsibility to educate their children, not governments.

so allowing your children to go to public school would be sin? i'm just looking for a yes or no answer here as arguing this issue will derail the thread.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

I look at it like this,

The world is the titanic. Its sinking and its going to go under. Our job is to get as many people off the sinking ship as possible, not so much to stop the ship from sinking.

This is almost the exact analogy taught by dispensationalism, which is clearly unbiblical. God's plan in redemption was not to snatch a few people from the fire, but to put all enemies under Christ's feet that He may have the full reward for His suffering. A reading of the parables as taught by Christ show that God's kingdom may start small like a mustard seed or leaven, but through the preaching of the gospel it will grow until the world is Christianized. Christ pictures the world as a wheat field (representing Christians) - not a tare field (representing non-Christians). Old Testament prophesies also picture the mountain of Christ encompassing the whole world. The church will not end in failure and dismal destruction like Israel did. There's really so much that could be said here, but I think you get the idea.

It's Christ who will save the world, not us. But He will accomplish this by means of preaching His Gospel.

which is what the anology means.

I may not have understood what you meant by the analogy then. It made me think of the dispensational analogy that you don't need to polish the brass on a sinking ship - basically denying the necessity of a total world and life view of Christianity. Why should we try to make governments, nations, etc. line up with the Word of God when it's all just going to hell in a handbasket anyways?

I mean, if the "Titanic" represents the world, then this is a new story of the titanic where it doesn't sink but flourishes under the gospel, lol.

 

[THE W]

I mean, if the "Titanic" represents the world, then this is a new story of the titanic where it doesn't sink but flourishes under the gospel, lol

Sounds like universalism to me.

Jesus will indeed save people out of the world though, as revelation 5:9 states.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

I mean, if the "Titanic" represents the world, then this is a new story of the titanic where it doesn't sink but flourishes under the gospel, lol

Sounds like universalism to me.

Jesus will indeed save people out of the world though, as revelation 5:9 states.

I'm sorry, I think you have me confused. I thought you were agreeing with me when you quoted what I said and said that's what your analogy meant.

I'm sorry, but this is nothing like universalism. The world will flourish under the gospel. There will still be tares, but it will be a wheat field. Even unbelievers will be required to submit outwardly to a Christian worldview - just like we have to submit outwardly to a pagan worldview with our ungodly government (ie. the government stealing from us in taxes, using unjust weights and measures, stealing from us in insurance and using our money to fund things like abortions, etc.). Christ victory is not just over individuals but over all creation. At the end of the kingdom, we will see the complete restoration of all creation.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

We are not meant to "take back the...school system for Jesus," though. The school system itself is based upon a completely unbiblical notion that the government should be involved in education, which the Bible does not give the authority for them to do it. Parents have the responsibility to educate their children, not governments.

so allowing your children to go to public school would be sin? i'm just looking for a yes or no answer here as arguing this issue will derail the thread.

Yes.

 

[THE W]

I mean, if the "Titanic" represents the world, then this is a new story of the titanic where it doesn't sink but flourishes under the gospel, lol

Sounds like universalism to me.

Jesus will indeed save people out of the world though, as revelation 5:9 states.

I'm sorry, I think you have me confused. I thought you were agreeing with me when you quoted what I said and said that's what your analogy meant.

I'm sorry, but this is nothing like universalism. The world will flourish under the gospel. There will still be tares, but it will be a wheat field. Even unbelievers will be required to submit outwardly to a Christian worldview - just like we have to submit outwardly to a pagan worldview with our ungodly government (ie. the government stealing from us in taxes, using unjust weights and measures, stealing from us in insurance and using our money to fund things like abortions, etc.). Christ victory is not just over individuals but over all creation. At the end of the kingdom, we will see the complete restoration of all creation.

Ok, when you say "the world will flourish under the gospel", "there will be tares", "even unbelievers will be required outwardly to submit to a christian worldview" "we will see the complete restoration of all creation", are all 4 of these events referring to the return of Chirst?

Christ victory is not just over individuals but over all creation

that is correct

 

[Boosterseat_91]

Ok, when you say "the world will flourish under the gospel", "there will be tares", "even unbelievers will be required outwardly to submit to a christian worldview" "we will see the complete restoration of all creation", are all 4 of these events referring to the return of Christ?

It will happen prior to the return of Christ. Christ will not return until He has put all enemies under His feet and all the elect have been brought into the fold. His bride, the church, will not end in failure.

 

[THE W]

Ok, when you say "the world will flourish under the gospel", "there will be tares", "even unbelievers will be required outwardly to submit to a christian worldview" "we will see the complete restoration of all creation", are all 4 of these events referring to the return of Christ?

It will happen prior to the return of Christ. Christ will not return until He has put all enemies under His feet and all the elect have been brought into the fold. His bride, the church, will not end in failure.

But these events happen at the same time?

 

[Scot]

Education - Maintaining the Antithesis

God's Law & Government - Maintaining the Antithesis

Eschatology - Maintaining the Antithesis

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

"The poor will always be with you".

"My kingdom is not of this world".

"Do good to all people, especially to those in the household of faith".

I am totally with you, Wade, on the whole "social justice" attitude so many Christians take, especially their involvement with politics. The Gospel!!! Preach it while we have strength! Soon we shall enter into glory. Let us praise the Glories of Jesus Christ, let us lift up in the highest before men, that inexhaustible fountain of mercy poured out on calvary. Everything else is a far #2. The preaching of the gospel to the lost !!!!

 

[Boosterseat_91]

Ok, when you say "the world will flourish under the gospel", "there will be tares", "even unbelievers will be required outwardly to submit to a christian worldview" "we will see the complete restoration of all creation", are all 4 of these events referring to the return of Christ?

It will happen prior to the return of Christ. Christ will not return until He has put all enemies under His feet and all the elect have been brought into the fold. His bride, the church, will not end in failure.

But these events happen at the same time?

It will happen progressively throughout time. Then Christ will return to a church triumphant.

 

[Vladimir]

I believe that the questions raised here are answered directly by our Lord himself when he tells us to love our neighbours.
Also, WFC, Chapter 23:

I. God, the Supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him over the people, for his own glory and the public good; and to this end, hath armed them with the power of the sword, for the defense and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evil-doers.
II. It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called thereunto; in the managing whereof, as they ought especially to maintain piety, justice, and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each commonwealth, so, for that end, they may lawfully, now under the New Testament, wage war upon just and necessary occasions.

Also, Larger Catechism:

Q. 96. What particular use is there of the moral law to unregenerate men?
A. The moral law is of use to unregenerate men, to awaken their consciences to flee from wrath to come, and to drive them to Christ; or, upon their continuance in the estate and way of sin, to leave them inexcusable, and under the curse thereof.

Authority is there for God's glory and public good and should be executed as such, as well as submitted to. We are to point others to errors of their ways in love and resist sin.
I think that covers everything.

 

[Need 4 Creed]

If Christ returns to a largely redeemed world and church. Why does the scripture say that the day and hour will take us by surprise? Surely a restored world would be a big clue that his return was near?

 

[Boosterseat_91]

If Christ returns to a largely redeemed world and church. Why does the scripture say that the day and hour will take us by surprise? Surely a restored world would be a big clue that his return was near?

I could say the same thing about defeatist theology - If Christ returns to a largely defeated church and ungodly world, wouldn't that be a big clue of his return? The answer is no one knows the day and the hour no one knows how long we are to continue in that state nor fully when that state is actually reached since it involves the entire world.

 

[Need 4 Creed]

Fair point.

If Christ returns to a largely redeemed world and church. Why does the scripture say that the day and hour will take us by surprise? Surely a restored world would be a big clue that his return was near?

I could say the same thing about defeatist theology - If Christ returns to a largely defeated church and ungodly world, wouldn't that be a big clue of his return? The answer is no one knows the day and the hour no one knows how long we are to continue in that state nor fully when that state is actually reached since it involves the entire world.

 

[THE W]

"The poor will always be with you".

"My kingdom is not of this world".

"Do good to all people, especially to those in the household of faith".

I am totally with you, Wade, on the whole "social justice" attitude so many Christians take, especially their involvement with politics. The Gospel!!! Preach it while we have strength! Soon we shall enter into glory. Let us praise the Glories of Jesus Christ, let us lift up in the highest before men, that inexhaustible fountain of mercy poured out on calvary. Everything else is a far #2. The preaching of the gospel to the lost !!!!

at least someone sees where im going with this,

we are not called to do any of the things i mentioned in my initial post. its not our job or even within our ability.

we are called to preach the gospel of Christ to all nations and that's the ONLY thing we are called to do. there are various means in which we do this but that is the purpose of those means.

Jesus said as much in Luke 16:26, John 4:13-14, john 6:26-27 and 32-35

Yes, im fully aware of the commands to care for the needy, and that the law is required of everyone, which is why those who have rebelled against God's law will face eternal damnation in hell and why churches have various outreach initiatives. My point is doing these things are tools of evangelism. What eternal good is it if someone is fed phsycially but starves to death spiritually?

The reason for Jesus feeding the 5,000 and 4,000, for giving sight to the blind, for raising the dead, healing the sick, turning water into wine, and all the other miracles he performed was for the same reason God raised up pharaoh in order to perform the plagues He did before Egypt and Israel to deliver His chosen people. they were signs and wonders for the purpose of Glory, belief, and repentance of sin in rebellion to God.

One phrase i saw repeated over and over in reading through the OT prophets was after God through the prophets talked about all the punishments He would bring on the nations that rebelled against him the would say "then they will know that I Am The LORD".

Jesus reiterates this in Matthew 11:20-24 and john 15:23-25

The sign and wonder that is given to us in today's world to use for evangelism is.....LOVE!

This is the reason why we have needy people around us always, why the only religion acceptable to God is to care for widows and orphans and not be polluted by the world. Its also why we are commanded to do the very radical things in Matthew 5:38-48 and Luke 6:27-36. Only those who the Spirit of God indwells will be able to do stuff like that. we are indeed commanded to do these things, but for the purpose of spreading the good news, not for the purpose of philanthropy. There are just as many atheists out there feeding the poor and caring for the needy as there are Christians and they don't care about the gospel and they actually are trying to save the world.

Jesus when He returns will eradicate and eliminate all of these things for the new heaven and new earth he will have for His chosen people. Our job is to get the message of salvation out to all nations.

 

[THE W]

If Christ returns to a largely redeemed world and church. Why does the scripture say that the day and hour will take us by surprise? Surely a restored world would be a big clue that his return was near?

I could say the same thing about defeatist theology - If Christ returns to a largely defeated church and ungodly world, wouldn't that be a big clue of his return? The answer is no one knows the day and the hour no one knows how long we are to continue in that state nor fully when that state is actually reached since it involves the entire world.

Why would the church be defeated?

 

[THE W]

We are not meant to "take back the...school system for Jesus," though. The school system itself is based upon a completely unbiblical notion that the government should be involved in education, which the Bible does not give the authority for them to do it. Parents have the responsibility to educate their children, not governments.

so allowing your children to go to public school would be sin? i'm just looking for a yes or no answer here as arguing this issue will derail the thread.

Yes.

Just wanted to say that after further consideration i have to agree with you here.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

If Christ returns to a largely redeemed world and church. Why does the scripture say that the day and hour will take us by surprise? Surely a restored world would be a big clue that his return was near?

I could say the same thing about defeatist theology - If Christ returns to a largely defeated church and ungodly world, wouldn't that be a big clue of his return? The answer is no one knows the day and the hour no one knows how long we are to continue in that state nor fully when that state is actually reached since it involves the entire world.

Why would the church be defeated?

That is simply another eschatological position included in most Amill views and all dispensational views. As an example, this type of theology is expressed very well in the beginning chapters of A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God. He talks about the world getting worse and worse like it's going to hell in a hand basket but God's still sovereign over it and we can do nothing about it. This is defeatist theology and it's not biblical. The Bible speaks about a church being triumphant over hell and Christ reigning over all nations - not a church that cowers in the corner and waits in defeat for the return of Christ.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

We are not meant to "take back the...school system for Jesus," though. The school system itself is based upon a completely unbiblical notion that the government should be involved in education, which the Bible does not give the authority for them to do it. Parents have the responsibility to educate their children, not governments.

so allowing your children to go to public school would be sin? i'm just looking for a yes or no answer here as arguing this issue will derail the thread.

Yes.

Just wanted to say that after further consideration i have to agree with you here.

Yeah, not to get too carried away into this, but especially considering that our public schools are anti-Christian in every regard it is surely a violation of the 5th commandment to allow our children to be taught to be little pagans in the public school system.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

we are not called to do any of the things i mentioned in my initial post. its not our job or even within our ability.

we are called to preach the gospel of Christ to all nations and that's the ONLY thing we are called to do. there are various means in which we do this but that is the purpose of those means.

Jesus said as much in Luke 16:26, John 4:13-14, john 6:26-27 and 32-35

Yes, im fully aware of the commands to care for the needy, and that the law is required of everyone, which is why those who have rebelled against God's law will face eternal damnation in hell and why churches have various outreach initiatives. My point is doing these things are tools of evangelism. What eternal good is it if someone is fed phsycially but starves to death spiritually?

The reason for Jesus feeding the 5,000 and 4,000, for giving sight to the blind, for raising the dead, healing the sick, turning water into wine, and all the other miracles he performed was for the same reason God raised up pharaoh in order to perform the plagues He did before Egypt and Israel to deliver His chosen people. they were signs and wonders for the purpose of Glory, belief, and repentance of sin in rebellion to God.

One phrase i saw repeated over and over in reading through the OT prophets was after God through the prophets talked about all the punishments He would bring on the nations that rebelled against him the would say "then they will know that I Am The LORD".

Jesus reiterates this in Matthew 11:20-24 and john 15:23-25

The sign and wonder that is given to us in today's world to use for evangelism is.....LOVE!

This is the reason why we have needy people around us always, why the only religion acceptable to God is to care for widows and orphans and not be polluted by the world. Its also why we are commanded to do the very radical things in Matthew 5:38-48 and Luke 6:27-36. Only those who the Spirit of God indwells will be able to do stuff like that. we are indeed commanded to do these things, but for the purpose of spreading the good news, not for the purpose of philanthropy. There are just as many atheists out there feeding the poor and caring for the needy as there are Christians and they don't care about the gospel and they actually are trying to save the world.

Jesus when He returns will eradicate and eliminate all of these things for the new heaven and new earth he will have for His chosen people. Our job is to get the message of salvation out to all nations.

I think we have to be careful here not to get into a heretical 2 kingdom view. The Great Commission was spoken to Apostles whose spiritual descendants are pastors/elders. They are the ones who have authority to preach, teach, and administer the sacraments. It's not spoken to every Christian. Christians can and have to be a part of the world - we're not the Amish, lol. We are called to be good employees, good housewives, law-abiding citizens in so far as it does not violate God's law, etc. In fact, Christians should be known as the best employees and citizens! The 1st commandment requires that we have an all-encompassing world and life view based upon Scripture. This includes government and other so-called "secular" things. But the government is not in fact secular! Romans 13 tells us the government is a minister of God to do good and punish wickedness.

We are called to show love to our neighbors and enemies, but obviously love means keeping the law of God towards them. For instance, I could show love to a homeless person - NOT by just giving them free food or money (if a man does not work, he does not eat) - but by giving him some type of work to do and then giving him pay/food for it. The Bible is not just get saved, get saved, get saved - What about sanctification? That's just as important. God requires all men and nations to submit to his law. We are just as much called to obey God's law in everything as we are to get saved - we are saved unto good works. Getting saved is not the end but the beginning. That's why a side-effect of the Gospel will be the coming of the nations to Christ. That's when we will see Christianity flourishing at its finest - when church, state, and family are working in their respective covenantal spheres fulfilling the role God has given to them. I am not one to argue pragmatically but Christianity works, lol. It brings economic, political, social prosperity.

So, I guess what I am saying is Christianity is more than just the gospel - we are called to obey God's law. And when each sphere of authority does this, there will be prosperity, even though that's not the goal per se.

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Psalm 33:12

 

[Miss Marple]

"What eternal good is it if someone is fed phsycially but starves to death spiritually?"

I think we are supposed to feed them anyway. The Good Samaritan comes to mind. It seems feeding/caring for people is part of sharing the gospel with them.

I say this within the parameter of Scripture, of course, not to just feed someone who is being deliberately lazy or something. But someone truly in need, or even just in need of hospitality.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

If Christ returns to a largely redeemed world and church. Why does the scripture say that the day and hour will take us by surprise? Surely a restored world would be a big clue that his return was near?

I could say the same thing about defeatist theology - If Christ returns to a largely defeated church and ungodly world, wouldn't that be a big clue of his return? The answer is no one knows the day and the hour no one knows how long we are to continue in that state nor fully when that state is actually reached since it involves the entire world.

Why would the church be defeated?

That is simply another eschatological position included in most Amill views and all dispensational views. As an example, this type of theology is expressed very well in the beginning chapters of A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God. He talks about the world getting worse and worse like it's going to hell in a hand basket but God's still sovereign over it and we can do nothing about it. This is defeatist theology and it's not biblical. The Bible speaks about a church being triumphant over hell and Christ reigning over all nations - not a church that cowers in the corner and waits in defeat for the return of Christ.

You seem to have a very carnal understanding of the Kingdom of Christ (church). For the church to be successful it doesn't mean she has to prosper physically (as in having dominion over unbelievers and outnumbering them). There is no contradictions in saying the church is prospering spiritually while she suffers earthly persecution. Saying that unless you believe the church will take over the world you have a defeatist view is to fall into the same trap that the Jewish people fell into when they thought Christ was coming as an earthly ruler to conquer the world and establish and Jewish earthly dominion.