Thank you, brother. Very helpful response. I've been continuing to chew on his objection and came to that realization as well. That every problem put up against infant baptism is also true of false professors. And so unless there's a solution on this side of heaven to fix the latter, which there isn't, then there's no reason for anyone to object to the former.
Paedo-Baptism Answers Infant Baptistm Objection
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Just to be clear, my answer is not an argument, per se, for the baptism of infants. That's grounded in a broader understanding of CT. The problem is that the Baptist often does not stop to consider that the "baptism of the regenerate only" is not an argument for the baptism of any specific individual standing in front of you. If the NT commands the baptism of the regenerate only, then it leaves the Church with an impossible task because no minister can determine if the person presenting himself for baptism is regenerate.
The argument tends to move past the issue of the fact that NC is with the elect only and makes a logical inference that "profession is the most probably means to determine that a person is regenerate," but so much energy is exhausted, proving that the NC is perfect that it is mostly a "hand wave" to the idea that profession meets the supposed standard that only the regenerate should be baptized.
At best, the Baptist can argue that there is a command to baptize only professors, but this conviction would only let them know that someone has been baptized in accordance with a command to admit someone into the visible Church as a professor and not because they are a member of the NC (under their theology). In other words, membership in the NC is so "protected" that not even Baptists know who in their Church is a member of the NC.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Hi Cody,
This isn't going to be too spiritual or educated but, have you ever considered the logistics of 3,000 people being immersed in one day (Acts 3:41)? Let's do some math.
How many fresh air baptisms have you attended? A lot of reformed people have never had that experience. The one I went to about five years ago had seven people getting baptized in a swimming pool.
I pasted the whole Passage below for your convenience.
Acts 2:37-41 ESV
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
[38] And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[39] For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
[40] And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
[41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
I have always taken vs. 41 that the baptisms were completed that day. My wife and I attended a pool baptism where seven people were baptized. The seven took about two hours. That's 17± minutes per person which included prayer, testimony, follow by the words and actions of the baptism. Granted, that time could be reduced, but reduced by how much? Maybe there were groups, even whole families dunked simultaneously. But, wouldn't anything faster, or more people at once would present a pretty weird and frenzied service we could hardly recognize.
So how about 3 minutes average per person. Here's the 3rd-grade math.
NOTE: Days and Weeks, are based on a 40-hour/5-day week.
3,000 (people) X 3 (minutes) = 9,000 (minutes) = 150 (hours) = 18.75 (8-hour days) = 3.75 (5-day weeks)
At 3 minutes apiece, this baptism would make this among the weirdest baptism ever.
Well, its a theory.
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
add to the fact that:Hi Cody,
This isn't going to be too spiritual or educated but, have you ever considered the logistics of 3,000 people being immersed in one day (Acts 3:41)? Let's do some math.
How many fresh air baptisms have you attended? A lot of reformed people have never had that experience. The one I went to about five years ago had seven people getting baptized in a swimming pool.
I pasted the whole Passage below for your convenience.
Acts 2:37-41 ESV[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”[38] And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[39] For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”[40] And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”[41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
I have always taken vs. 41 that the baptisms were completed that day. My wife and I attended a pool baptism where seven people were baptized. The seven took about two hours. That's 17± minutes per person which included prayer, testimony, follow by the words and actions of the baptism. Granted, that time could be reduced, but reduced by how much? Maybe there were groups, even whole families dunked simultaneously. But, wouldn't anything faster, or more people at once would present a pretty weird and frenzied service we could hardly recognize.
So how about 3 minutes average per person. Here's the 3rd-grade math.
NOTE: Days and Weeks, are based on a 40-hour/5-day week.
3,000 (people) X 3 (minutes) = 9,000 (minutes) = 150 (hours) = 18.75 (8-hour days) = 3.75 (5-day weeks)
Well, its a theory.
1. The Jews would probablllly have something to say about such an act and prohibited them from using such spaces.
2.the logistics of gathering 3,000 for a day event would have been massive.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Bravo, Rich, well said.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Are you pointing out the unliklihood that these were all adults?Hi Cody,
This isn't going to be too spiritual or educated but, have you ever considered the logistics of 3,000 people being immersed in one day (Acts 3:41)? Let's do some math.
How many fresh air baptisms have you attended? A lot of reformed people have never had that experience. The one I went to about five years ago had seven people getting baptized in a swimming pool.
I pasted the whole Passage below for your convenience.
Acts 2:37-41 ESV[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”[38] And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[39] For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”[40] And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”[41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
I have always taken vs. 41 that the baptisms were completed that day. My wife and I attended a pool baptism where seven people were baptized. The seven took about two hours. That's 17± minutes per person which included prayer, testimony, follow by the words and actions of the baptism. Granted, that time could be reduced, but reduced by how much? Maybe there were groups, even whole families dunked simultaneously. But, wouldn't anything faster, or more people at once would present a pretty weird and frenzied service we could hardly recognize.
So how about 3 minutes average per person. Here's the 3rd-grade math.
NOTE: Days and Weeks, are based on a 40-hour/5-day week.
3,000 (people) X 3 (minutes) = 9,000 (minutes) = 150 (hours) = 18.75 (8-hour days) = 3.75 (5-day weeks)
At 3 minutes apiece, this baptism would make this among the weirdest baptism ever.
Well, its a theory.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Hi Cody,
No, I'm not saying much of anything with conviction. I have wondered about it for years but never researched it to see if there is a solution. It must have been a holy mess.
Almost always, with the crowds in the Bible. the adults are discussed, and only the adult men are numbered. As you know, sometimes the author will add something like "besides women and children." In Acts 2 all the individules are called 'souls,' but context only mentions adults.
That's all I want to say on the subject. Maybe I shouldn't have posted. But I'll let it stand.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Ed
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James White recently has devoted three of his Dividing Line episodes responding responding to a paedobaptist. He faces the same dilemma. He argues for the perfection of the NC but cannot say with absolute certainty that the baptised members of his church are members of the NC.
It is worth listening to this and reflecting on why a Paedobaptist covenant theology is more Biblically consistent.
Right. I've listened to them. He spends all his time exegeting that the NC is perfected in Christ and that all in the NC will know the Lord and then he simply says (essentially) - "We baptize based on that which provides evidence of NC membership...."
He doesn't exegete this; it's a theological conclusion not from the text of Hebrews itself.
I don't think he realizes that the Reformed confessions teach that the CoG is made with Christ and, in Him, all the elect.
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