Missionaries & speaking in tongues

[Mayflower]

Today we hath a bible study meeting from ourt church. You must understand that iam coming from a evagelical (non reformed) church, and we discussed the topic of tongues, and so i shared my of being a cessationist.

Now one of the church memebrs said that she heard stories of missionaries who went to unknown tribes and there they spoke in tongues in their own language?
What must we think about this ? Has anyone heard this before, and does anyone has some critics about this ? Any comments would be helpfull!

 

[Chris]

Are you referring to

a) ecstatic utterances, or

b) being able to effectively communicate across language barriers?

 

[Davidius]

Are you referring to

a) ecstatic utterances, or

b) being able to effectively communicate across language barriers?

Context, especially "in their own language," suggests that he's referring to communciating across language barrier (with 'their' referring to the language of the tribe, not the missionaries.).

 

[Dwimble]

Right, as Chris said, what exactly are you referring to? Most of my Christian life I've heard the urban legends about missionaries speaking in tongues (not knowing what they were saying) and the natives hearing them preach the gospel. Of course these are always stories that the people heard from someone else or read somewhere, but never directly from anyone that it happened to or who witnessed it (as is always the case with urban legends).

I place those stories flatly in the same category as the story I've heard dozens of times about the soldiers busting into a secret house-church in a country closed to the gospel. The story goes that they tell everyone that whoever denies Christ can leave and the rest will be killed. Then, when the others leave, the soldiers drop their guns and say to the rest, "we are Christians and had to be sure that only true Christians remained before risking out lives and coming into this church." Of course the story is made up and has been circulating for decades about any of a dozen countries.

Now, as to being given the ability actually to speak another language that the person never learned...I'm skeptical, but that's a subject for a debate about the cessation of gifts. I will say, however, that I did actually meet a missionary years ago who clearly spoke Spanish, and who said that he never learned it. He said that he went on a mission trip with someone and instantly was able to speak the language fluently and immediately changed his life and moved there and ministered there from then on...saying that before long he was actually more comfortable speaking Spanish than English.

Now, he was either lying and he really did learn Spanish before going or he was telling the truth. I have no possible way of knowing which is true--I had no contact with the man before or after meeting him on that occasion. Anecdotal evidence is certainly not a legitimate basis for doctrine though. That's the methodology of false prophets and Word Faith people.

 

[Mayflower]

Are you referring to

a) ecstatic utterances, or

b) being able to effectively communicate across language barriers?

What i mean is that the missionaries started to speak in an unknown tongue towards that tribe, and that language of these tongues was the language of that tribe. That is what they say happen (sometimes) in the mission field ?????

 

[Chris]

That is what they say

'they say'

I had a friend who used to preface everything he said with 'they say'. It allows you to tell a story without being pinned down as to its accuracy.

I've heard a similar story from here in America. Some sailors from russia were here in port and attended a seaman's ministry and heard the Gospel in their own language, and were converted.

Could it happen? Of course.

Does Scriptural evidence and historical evidence indicate that it is a phenomena we should expect, and that we should assume to be real upon hearing reports of it? No.

I've also heard stories of missionsries finding people who had dreamed of Jesus, etcetera. I've heard stories of people in Asia being raised from the dead. If I saw it happening, I supposed I'd 'go with it', but until then, I'm a bit skeptical.

 

[SRoper]

Read Augustine. I'm quite skeptical about this great theologian's accounts concerning the healing powers of relics. How much more am I going to doubt the tales of some anonymous missionary?

 

[SRoper]

...dreams of Jesus are providentially given in the process of many people here coming to faith (about 15-20%).

If true this would undermine Paul's argument in Romans 10:14,15.

 

[Chris]

If true this would undermine Paul's argument in Romans 10:14,15.

How so?

If I dream of the perfect lunch, it helps me choose what to order (when I see my dream lunch on the menu) but it doesn't actually feed me...

 

[SRoper]

I'm curious how such a dream can possibly be "not revelation."

Paul's argument askes the rhetorical question "how are they to hear without someone preaching?" The answer, of course, is "they can't." A dream containing the Word would contradict this. This is not at all like the dream to go meet a preacher who will then tell the person about the Word.

As for an explanation for this phenomenon, a person hears about Jesus from a missionary and out of excitement reinterprets a dream he had before to have referred to this Jesus. Others, not wanting to be left out, also claim to have such dreams. A large percentage of missionaries are Pentecostal, so they only encourage such behavior. Even cessationists are slow to correct such experiences as they don't wan't to lose a potential convert or appear to be impious.

 

[Davidius]

Too, Scott, you hit on a good point ---- if you are right and a large percentage of missionaries are Pentecostal...why is that? Why not more Reformed missioanaries?

How many Pentecostals are there in general compared to Reformed? This would be my first response. Secondly, Pentecostals don't care about sound doctrine and the purity of the church. Since they don't have to study, they have plenty of resources to spend all their time "preaching the Gospel" (which is often not even really preaching the Gospel). Also, Pentecostalism is rife with Gnosticism. When I was a Charismatic I thought my life didn't count for anything unless I were to become a missionary/pastor. The Creation and normal life are scorned as being unspiritual and generally a waste of time.

Let's not forget that there are Reformed missionary societies.

 

[Chris]

How many Pentecostals are there in general compared to Reformed? This would be my first response. Secondly, Pentecostals don't care about sound doctrine and the purity of the church. Since they don't have to study, they have plenty of resources to spend all their time "preaching the Gospel" (which is often not even really preaching the Gospel). Also, Pentecostalism is rife with Gnosticism. When I was a Charismatic I thought my life didn't count for anything unless I were to become a missionary/pastor. The Creation and normal life are scorned as being unspiritual and generally a waste of time.

I had someone tell me the other day 'I'd rather my kids be charasmatic than reformed'.

After reading your post, I think I know why.....

 

[Davidius]

After reading your post, I think I know why.....

What do you mean?

 

[Chris]

What do you mean?

I mean that you painted a really nasty caracature there, and in doing so, played perfectly into the picture that many non-reformed people paint of reformed people.

It's bad enough trying to fight such stereotypes without having to see reformed people reinforcing them.

 

[historyb]

How many Pentecostals are there in general compared to Reformed? This would be my first response. Secondly, Pentecostals don't care about sound doctrine and the purity of the church. Since they don't have to study, they have plenty of resources to spend all their time "preaching the Gospel" (which is often not even really preaching the Gospel). Also, Pentecostalism is rife with Gnosticism. When I was a Charismatic I thought my life didn't count for anything unless I were to become a missionary/pastor. The Creation and normal life are scorned as being unspiritual and generally a waste of time.

Let's not forget that there are Reformed missionary societies.

I remember my time in that type of thing and this mirrors it pretty well. Look at TBN

 

[Davidius]

I mean that you painted a really nasty caracature there, and in doing so, played perfectly into the picture that many non-reformed people paint of reformed people.

It's bad enough trying to fight such stereotypes without having to see reformed people reinforcing them.

Chris,

No offense, but I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. What exactly is your experience with Pentecostalism? And what exactly did I say that was a caricature? I've done missionary work with Pentecostals in Russia, India and Germany. I've been a part of multiple charismatic groups here in the States and read plenty of their "literature". I have propogated no stereotype and I really don't care what Charismaniacs think about Reformed churches or people. For many of them it's "mean" to question anything so their opinion of my evaluation means nothing to me. Have you seen "Jesus Camp"? If not, you need to. What it shows is by no means an isolated phenomenon.

I remember my time in that type of thing and this mirrors it pretty well. Look at TBN

Enough said.

 

[Dwimble]

As far as it relates to Pentecostalism and many other "charismaniacs" (to borrow your facetious word), I tend to agree with you for the most part. However, I think we should be careful that we don't throw everyone who doesn't believe that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 refers to the closing of the canon into the same boat. After all, holding that view should never be taken to imply that you agree with the likes of extremist wackos like Benny Hinn or Kenneth Hagin or thieves like Robert Tilton and W.V. Grant. Well, no more than being a cessationist should imply that you agree with all the wackos and walking dead on that side.

 

[shackleton]

Chris,

Have you seen "Jesus Camp"? If not, you need to. What it shows is by no means an isolated phenomenon.



Enough said.

It is interesting you bring that up. I was just thinking the same thing. I spent several years in a Pentacostal church, that brought back a lot of bad memories. It reminds me more of a pagan ritual than true christianity, it is all emotionalism. It is sad to say, but I bet the kids will wind up falling away from the faith when they get older, the kid with the rat tail looked like he might want Ted Haggards job though, (Maybe he was a Jedi, they had rat tails). Watching that made me think, "Wow these people are brainwashed," but that was me once. Sadly those people are right here in my home town.
__________________

 

[SRoper]

I do not think they are all liars...

I think most have probably deceived themselves. I don't see such phenomenon as any different than Romish claims of apparitions of Mary or the Mormon burning in the bosom.

Also, the second example you give has occurred to me in the jungle. No radio and a couple got up before dawn and walked 6 hours with a newborn to meet us 5 hours on the trail from our base and to bring us food because they had a dream we were coming. Our trip was unannounced and decided without advance planning. I know this is not extra-biblical revelation, but it happened and I have explanation other than to take their word that they did, infact, dream that they were going to have guests that day out in the middle of the jungle.

Just to clarify, I was contrasting the two types of dreams as being quite different.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Well said, Trevor.

Sometimes, some 'reformed' are more HYPERCALVINISTIC in how they handle evangelism, than biblical.

On the topic at hand.....a bit that I wrote earlier tonight.

On a related note, we need to keep our approach to miracles in mind.

During Jesus' time, they served as confirmation of His claims to Deity and messiahship. Likewise, during the book of Acts, they served to authenticate the power of God to different nations and people outside of Israel.

I believe that God still operates this way, especially in foreign countries where demonic activity is more visible via many animistic religions. There have been more than a few conversion stories from former Muslims who saw a man in a white sheet in a dream tell them to seek out a Christian.

But here in the US and other countries where the Word has gone forth ? A little less likely, in my opinion. God already has left 'proof' for us - the scriptures. If people won't believe them, they won't believe God.

The paradigm for this is seen in Luke 19 where the rich man asks Lazarus to warn his still-living brothers about the coming judgment and hell. Lazarus says 'They have Moses and the prophets - let them hear them.' Folk had the scriptures (Moses AND the prophets.....and remember, they all didn't live at the same time....). And Abraham told the dude 'Hey, if they won't believe Moses and the prophets, they won't believe someone who has risen from the dead.'

So I do believe there's a paradigm in scripture for what I call 'pragmatic cessationism' (also called the non-normative view). The purpose of miracles was not simply so people could get well on this earth - because all of them eventually die anyway. The purpose of every miracle was for the authentication of ministry - and usually, when the Word of God was present in a place and already established, the necessity and frequency of miracles slowly faded out.

There have been and continue to be exceptions to this principle throughout church history, but as a general rule, wherever the Word of God is, there is no need for authenticating accompanying signs. I think that at times, people mistakenly read narrative stories as if they were instructional and doctrinal. Everything in the book of Acts is not the norm for the church.

 

[shackleton]

In spite of what I said about the "Jesus Camp" people, the Pentacostals do seem to be more zealous for evangelism. They are exited about what they have and they want to tell people. In my limited expereience with Refomed people, they spend a lot of time theologizing about the correct way to evangelize but don't ever go and do it. It just doesn't seem to be a priority with them, at first that seemed frustrating, then I started to believe it myself. I presented ideas that I learned while a Pentacostal and Baptist and they just were not interested, they liked tearing down why those methods were bad instead. One guy even told me to just sit there in my pew and be quite. Their method of evangelism seems to be having children and teaching them catechism and hope that they grow up and have children and do the same.

Because of the way I was raised and the curcumstances I was in, I came to Christ because I had a dream anout Jesus that got me interested and then sought out a friend of mine's dad who was a pastor and began my Christian walk that way. I think the Charismatics and Pentacostals have a purpose.