Optimistic Amil vs Postmil

[Peairtach]

Pergy

I believe the Gospel will be taken to the whole world. And that it will have its own predestined measure of success among every people. But, "to fill the whole earth" seems to mean that the vast majority of people will be Christian or under Christian powers it seems.

The mountain of Daniel WILL fill the whole earth, but will this occur entirely before Christ returns or will the Gospel go forth, Christ return and then finish the work so that this mountain of Daniel fills the whole earth, not just for a mere millennium, but forever, at Jesus' Second Coming?

Obviously the eternal state will be far superior to any Gospel victory/victories in history, which is why I would prefer to call the eternal state "the Golden Age". Maybe it's better to call times of great conquest by the Gospel in history "Silver Ages".

But Christ can only triumph through the Gospel in history, because the Gospel message/command/offer is only for history. After history ends, evangelism ends, and no more people can be converted through the Gospel which Christ has wrought.

Postmils would see in Daniel's stone and mountain and the Parables of the Leaven and the Mustard Seed, and other parts of Scripture, the promise of a filling of the earth by the gradualist means of the Gospel in history, as there is no mention of a cataclysmic intervention in the process e.g. the growth of the mountain filling the earth, clearly happens gradually on this present earth and in history, just as the Roman Empire was historical.

The Gospel is the means by which Christ is gloriously victorious over the hearts of men, whether one man or a whole earthly population.

Christ's Second Advent is of a different sort of victory altogether, but without it the work is not complete.

It is true that the kingdom can't be completed until Jesus returns, because in history there will always be sin, illness and death. But the conversion of souls by a gradual filling of the earth in history can well be accomplished if it is God's will, just as the Israelites were eventually able, by God's grace, to conquer the Land God had given to them.

 

[Pergamum]

Richard,

Christ will conquer Antichrist at the End of the Age and I don't take this to mean evangelize until Antichrist is converted. It appears Christ will kill him at his appearing after Antichrist's short period of seeming success.

Christ is putting all things under his feet, and His Kingdom Comes.....and all will submit, either through conversion now or judgment at the end of the age.


I call myself Amil, and I believe the Gospel will go to all nations and every people will have their Elect called out from them. This will be gradualist as the wheat fills the field of the world, even as tares also grow. This is the story of the history of the growth of the Church.

And then, following some small season of trial and apostasy and the emergence of Antichrist, Christ will suddenly appear and finish the work, kill Antichrist and his angels will help to bring in the Harvest.

This all will still happen "in" history - at its end - as Christ suddenly appears and wraps up the work.

I agree with your view largely and see no reason why I need to be postmil to believe it. The Gospel IS filling the world, even if many tares exist. I expect maybe even to see Christianity to be the largest segment of the world's population before the end, even if false believers will exist among the wheat.

 

[Peairtach]

I probably see things slightly differently. E.g. I tend to see the Papacy as fulfilling Antichrist and being defeated long before the end.

It's interesting to discuss sincerely held differences between amil and postmil, but I suppose we shouldn't get too heated about it, and should hold our opinions with a pinch of salt, since it is quite a difficult area, but this also makes it interesting to discuss.

 

[Pergamum]

Richard,

No heat here, I like hearing about your views. I am trying to figure out my own.

 

[Peairtach]

Fine, brother.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

If one adopts the idealist approach one is bound to acknowledge that the silence doesn't refer to a past, present, or future event, but to a specific perspective with which to view the witness.

Maybe I'm confused, in the idealist approach is there no chronology at all? when it says that the beast will overcome the witnesses after they have finish their testimony does it not assume some type of chronology since one event needs to precede the other? Would this mean that in Revelation 20 the releasing of Satan does not happen just before the second coming? Will there be no apostasy near the end?

 

[MW]

Maybe I'm confused, in the idealist approach is there no chronology at all? when it says that the beast will overcome the witnesses after they have finish their testimony does it not assume some type of chronology since one event needs to precede the other? Would this mean that in Revelation 20 the releasing of Satan does not happen just before the second coming? Will there be no apostasy near the end?

Idealism refers to the approach that the visions represent an "ideal;" technically, the visions draw on theological imagery in order to convey the message that Jesus Christ is the ultimate and complete revelation of God. Time references are not literal but ideal. As the ideal is a transcending state of affairs which exists in the present age, the time references indicate that the state of affairs is either complete or less than complete. 7, 10, 1000, are complete numbers. 3.5 is an incomplete number. In the case of the 1000 years it is impossible to conceive of a more complete number. It is an ultimate state of affairs. What happens after it cannot be chronological but must be a co-existing state of affairs which is less than ultimate.

The two candlesticks are the two faithful witnesses. The golden candlestick was the glorious image of the church which John saw in his initial vision. When he wrote to the seven churches in Asia, they were less than perfect. Two of them were faithful -- Smyrna and Philadelphia. Both of them witnessed against the synagogue of Satan. To one, Christ was dead and is alive; to the other, Christ openeth and no man shutteth. One would have tribulation ten days while the other would be kept from the hour of temptation which shall come upon the world. In chap. 11 the two witnesses are dead and then brought to life again; then they ascended up to heaven in a cloud. It is teaching a transcendent state of affairs which prevails throughout the present age, not a series of events which take place in chronological order.

 

[Peairtach]

Richard,

No heat here, I like hearing about your views. I am trying to figure out my own.

Although I'm largely a convinced amillennial postmillennialist, I suppose one or two texts among others should give one pause for thought and make one open to expect some surprises:

So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8)

This passage would be compatible with a general scheme of eschatology like amil or postmil, or a combination thereof, but we should be careful not to be too dogmatic, or too dogmatic on (some) of the details.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.(I Peter 1:10-13, ESV)

These godly brothers - who had the gift of prophecy, unlike us - were doing a similar thing respecting the Messiah's first advent, to what we do when we discuss and debate amil/postmil, etc. Or is that an appropriate comparison? Yet the event was very different to what many of the interpreters of the Tanakh would have forseen.

Interestingly, the ESV says, "inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating."

I suppose we should have other threads on this translation by the ESV, and how dogmatic we should be about these aspects of eschatology i.e. amil/postmil/premil and combinations thereof.

 

[Trish Collins Hicks]

post milleniumist and amilleniumist

from what my husband has taught me and he is pretty much grounded more than me in the word of God,and he right now is leaning more towards amill he also has the book the one world conquerers or something don't remember the entire title.
and scriptures the way we understand the book of revelations tells us that Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron.the 1000 years is going on now.Because as you read chapter 11 the rapture happens from what we can gather.And what would be left,who would be left for the 1000 year reign on the earth.for the lost souls will be killed by the brightness of his comming.Then i think it's either 19 or 20 tells the wrath of God which the saints will not endure.I mean if there is a 1000 year millenial reign litterally who will Jesus and the saints be reigning over?

 

[Fogetaboutit]

Idealism refers to the approach that the visions represent an "ideal;" technically, the visions draw on theological imagery in order to convey the message that Jesus Christ is the ultimate and complete revelation of God. Time references are not literal but ideal. As the ideal is a transcending state of affairs which exists in the present age, the time references indicate that the state of affairs is either complete or less than complete. 7, 10, 1000, are complete numbers. 3.5 is an incomplete number. In the case of the 1000 years it is impossible to conceive of a more complete number. It is an ultimate state of affairs. What happens after it cannot be chronological but must be a co-existing state of affairs which is less than ultimate.

The two candlesticks are the two faithful witnesses. The golden candlestick was the glorious image of the church which John saw in his initial vision. When he wrote to the seven churches in Asia, they were less than perfect. Two of them were faithful -- Smyrna and Philadelphia. Both of them witnessed against the synagogue of Satan. To one, Christ was dead and is alive; to the other, Christ openeth and no man shutteth. One would have tribulation ten days while the other would be kept from the hour of temptation which shall come upon the world. In chap. 11 the two witnesses are dead and then brought to life again; then they ascended up to heaven in a cloud. It is teaching a transcendent state of affairs which prevails throughout the present age, not a series of events which take place in chronological order.

I would agree with the symbology of the numbers you mentionned, but I wouldn't go as far as having no chronology at all, from my understanding the 1000 year of Revelation 20 represent the "fullness" of the time the church will witness on earth and not nessarilty the "fullness" of the time from Christ ascension into heaven until his return. The text specfically says "after" the thousand years is fullfilled the dragon will be released, Satan will not be released after Christ's coming

Revelation 20:3 (KJV)

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season

Revelation 20:7 (KJV)

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

On the other hand in Revelation 11 we have a picture of the 2 witnesses (Church) testifying for 1260 days (3 1/2 years) which represent half a week, this week represent then entire new testament era (7 days, 7 represent completeness as you mentioned). Therefore my understanding was that the church would finish her testimony sometime before the end (Christ 2nd coming) then would be overcome by the beast and be killed (silenced). We see similar analogy in Revelation 12 with the Woman (Chruch) in the wilderness from 1260 days. This seem to coincide with other portion of scripture which speak of apostasy near the end (2 Thes 2, Matt 24:22-24, etc).

 

[Peairtach]

from what my husband has taught me and he is pretty much grounded more than me in the word of God,and he right now is leaning more towards amill he also has the book the one world conquerers or something don't remember the entire title.
and scriptures the way we understand the book of revelations tells us that Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron.the 1000 years is going on now.Because as you read chapter 11 the rapture happens from what we can gather.And what would be left,who would be left for the 1000 year reign on the earth.for the lost souls will be killed by the brightness of his comming.Then i think it's either 19 or 20 tells the wrath of God which the saints will not endure.I mean if there is a 1000 year millenial reign litterally who will Jesus and the saints be reigning over?

Well when you go into it more deeply and interpret the difficult book of Revelation in the light of more straightforward passages like the Upper Room Discourse (John 13-17),you'll realise that Jesus has all power in Heaven and Earth, being both gorified and exalted to the highest position beside His Father.

Any premil scheme which returns Him to dusty Jerusalem, would not increase His power or authority, which He has all He needs to achieve His glorious purposes in history, but would reduce Him from His state of hyper-exaltation.

A consideration of Christ's states of humiliation and exaltation, alone, explodes the whole premil scheme.

 

[MW]

I would agree with the symbology of the numbers you mentionned, but I wouldn't go as far as having no chronology at all

You can't eat your idealism and have it too.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

You can't eat your idealism and have it too.

So do all idealists have the same interpretations (no chronology or order in Revalation what so ever)? I've read exposition of Revelation that uses same symbology but also have order in the events, I don't know if they would be considered idealist but they seems to have similar interpretations (symbology and recapitulation). I guess I have more reading to do before I associate myself with a certain camp.

 

[MW]

So do all idealists have the same interpretations (no chronology or order in Revalation what so ever)? I've read exposition of Revelation that uses same symbology but also have order in the events, I don't know if they would be considered idealist but they seems to have similar interpretations (symbology and recapitulation). I guess I have more reading to do before I associate myself with a certain camp.

Good question. Not all idealism is created equally. The early 20th century version was fairly consistent. As the century wore on there was a tendency to utilise it in answer to premillennialism, which meant that an event-focussed interpretation predominated and was mixed with idealism.