PC (USA)

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Are they our brothers and sisters in Christ? Or, should they be considered as Rome?

 

[lwadkins]

There are faithful churches in the PC (USA) and then there are churches that hold to nothing and their real religion is simply tolerance for all views. We left the PC (USA) for just that reason, that we were expected to tolerate the false gospels that were accepted as being within the pale by the church.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Difficult to say. There are some faithful churches still there. It would be better to consider them corrupt rather than apostate at this point. Once they officially condemn the gospel like Rome or EO, then you may probably consider them apostate. Just initial thoughts....

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I don't doubt there can be individual true believers in the PCUSA just as there may be in the RCC; however, the PCUSA is indeed apostate. Did they become apostate in 1924 with the promulgation of the Auburn Affirmation? Did they cross the line when during the Pearl Buck-Machen controversy of the 1930's? Perhaps it was when they adopted the apostate Confession of 1967? I don't know precisely when abortion was first championed by the PCUSA, or evolution, or universalism, or homosexuality, or feminism (I do know that they first ordained women elders in 1930), et al., but I have experienced first-hand the pernicious effects of PCUSA teaching in those areas in particular. The biggest problem I have them is their neo-orthodox approach to God's Word. They often use the right language with heretical meaning. Thus, they claim to adhere to the historic Reformation confessions, but in reality deny them utterly.

For more information, I would suggest reading Morton H. Smith's How is the Gold Become Dim or Gary North's Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church.

[Edited on 3-7-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[lwadkins]

There is a confessing movement within the PC (USA) trying to return the denomination to orthodoxy. It is these churches that are contained within the PC (USA) that you would find quite accecptable, althogh you would have to say the denomination as a whole is apostate.

 

[gwine]

One of the elders at the church we are members of said that he would have no problem with my mom (a PC-USA member) taking the Lord's Supper with us.

Kind of threw me for a loop.

 

[Michael]

A believer from the PCUSA may very well be ignorant of their denomination's heresies. The governing body of the church, however, is without excuse and very dangerous in my opinion.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by gwine
One of the elders at the church we are members of said that he would have no problem with my mom (a PC-USA member) taking the Lord's Supper with us.

Kind of threw me for a loop.

My mother is a member of the PCUSA after a lifetime as a Roman Catholic. She considers herself a member of both churches, and her PCUSA church is ok with that.

 

[lwadkins]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Originally posted by gwine
One of the elders at the church we are members of said that he would have no problem with my mom (a PC-USA member) taking the Lord's Supper with us.

Kind of threw me for a loop.

My mother is a member of the PCUSA after a lifetime as a Roman Catholic. She considers herself a member of both churches, and her PCUSA church is ok with that.

Yup, this would be in line with PC (USA) practice. If you read their book of confessions, they subscribe to a great number of confessions and creeds, not all of which are compatible with one another.

 

[Plimoth Thom]

According to the Confessing Church Movement within the Presbyterian Church (USA) they have 1,310 congregations and 432,793 members. Unfortunately they're a small minority in a denomination of 2.4 million members and 11,100 congregations.

http://www.confessingchurch.homestead.com/

 

[lwadkins]

Yes Plimoth Thom, and we felt that there was so many anti-biblical trends that we couldn't stay and be any part of that. As much as we would have liked to help support the confessing movement there, it meant we had to be part of supporting offensive programs and so called ministries. Our other choice would have to be reneging on our promises made when joining the church. We had to leave! My personal opinion is that staying in a denomination that far gone to try to change it, is not a valid option. It means you have to me involved, even if it is unwillingly, in sin that is being perpetrated by the organized church.

 

[lwadkins]

When the Baptist Union in October 1887 refused to address error in favor of denominational unity Charles Spurgeon withdrew from the union (October 28, 1887), then in the November issue of The Sword and the Trowel, he wrote this:

"Believers in Christ´s atonement are now in declared union with those who make light of it; believers in Holy Scripture are in confederation with those who deny plenary inspiration; those who hold evangelical doctrine are in open alliance with those who call the faith a fable, who deny the personality of the Holy Ghost, who call justification by faith immoral and hold that there is another probation after death"¦.. Yes we have before us the wretched spectacle of professedly orthodox Christians publicly avowing their union with those who deny the faith and scarcely concealing their contempt for those who cannot be guilty of such gross disloyalty to Christ. To be very plain we are unable to call these things Christian Unions, they begin to look like Confederacies in Evil"¦.
"œIt is our solemn conviction that where there can be no real spiritual communion there should be no pretense of fellowship. Fellowship with known and vital error is participation in sin."

The list of errors reminds me of many of the "œso called" debates in the PC (USA)! The statement in bold was the conclusion that we came to that caused us to leave the PC (USA) instead of working for reform inside the church.

In April 1888 he wrote this in The Sword and Trowel:

Failure at a crucial moment may mar the entire outcome of a life. A man who has enjoyed special light is made bold to follow in the way of the Lord and is anointed to guide others therein. He rises into a place of love and esteem among the godly, and this promotes his advancement among men. What then? The temptation comes to be careful of the position he has gained and do nothing to endanger it. The man so lately a faithful man of God, compromises with worldlings, and to quiet he own conscience invents a theory by which such compromises are justified and even commended. He receives the praises of 'the judicious'; he has, in truth, gone over to the enemy. The whole force of his former life now tells upon the wrong side.... To avoid such an end it becomes us ever to stand fast.

As a ruling elder I felt I had to remove myself from a session which was allowing error or give tacit approval to the error by remaining and thus participating in sinful practices. As such practices are tolerated by the whole of the PC (USA) the courts of the church were no recourse for a remedy. I enjoyed serving the church and the people therein and, for a while, I think I was "œcareful of my position" as Spurgeon said, and "œjustified" remaining thinking I might do good.

In the last year of his life (1891) he gave a sermon from the book of Daniel on Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the firey furnace. In the first part of the sermon he gives excuses that they might have given to justify compliance which would have kept them from the furnace. They could have said:

We could do more good by living, dying would cut short our opportunities of usefulness.

Then he expands on this:

Ah dear brethren! there are many that are deceived by this method of reasoning. They remain where their conscience tells them they ought not to be, because they say, they are more useful than the would be if they went "œwithout the camp". This is doing evil that good may come, and can never be tolerated by and enlightened conscience. If an act of sin would increase my usefulness tenfold, I have no right to do it; and if an act of righteousness would appear likely to destroy all my apparent usefulness, I am yet to do it. It is yours and mine to do the right though the heavens fall, and follow the command of Christ whatever the consequences may be. "œThat is strong meat," do you say? Be strong men then and feed thereon"¦.

For right is right, since God is God,
And right the day must win;
To doubt would be disloyalty,
To falter would be sin

The pressure on Spurgeon to just "œgo along to get along" was immense, from newspapers, churches and their leaders and indeed from the laity also. Spurgeon chose to do right although it was likely to diminish his ministry.

So it is with us, "œright is right, since God is God."

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Plimoth Thom
According to the Confessing Church Movement within the Presbyterian Church (USA) they have 1,310 congregations and 432,793 members. Unfortunately they're a small minority in a denomination of 2.4 million members and 11,100 congregations.

http://www.confessingchurch.homestead.com/

Which is larger than the PCA. Probably larger than the PCA and OPC combined.

When the PCA BCO speaks of admitting folks to the Lord's Supper who are "communicants in good standing in any evangelical church", is "church" to be understood as a local assembly or as the denomination?

 

[Scott]

It is interesting that the Reformers typically considered Roman churches as true churches until Trent, when the officially as a collective church embraced a heresy that was before that not required of members (even though many held to them). The authenticity of that corrupt communion until Trent was a ground for a number of Reformed views, such as the lawfulness of ordinations in Roman churches (which. among other things, Refomers used to justify the legitimacy of their callings).

So has the PCUSA, as a church, by synod adopted a churchwide heresy? I don't know. If not, I would be generous toward them.

 

[Scott]

"According to the Confessing Church Movement within the Presbyterian Church (USA) they have 1,310 congregations and 432,793 members. Unfortunately they're a small minority in a denomination of 2.4 million members and 11,100 congregations."

I would also consider that a large portion of those 2.4 million are inactive and don't attend. I bet that the portion of members of the Confessing Church Movement are more faithful attenders. But that is just a guess.

 

[lwadkins]

Yes, but the mechanisms of the PC (USA) government is largely in the hands of liberal/non-orthodox members and this strangle hold only seems to be getting worse. At this point it seems that about the best the confessing church movement can do is maintain some positions againts attack from the majority and their ability to do even that seems to be erroding.

 

[AdamM]

The confessing movement in the PCUSA cannot even agree among themselves on faith alone or Christ alone (forget about sola scriptura.) I guess it is just a reflection as to how far from orthodoxy the PCUSA has drifted that the "conservatives" are folks who you would have a hard time fitting into the category of evangelical.

For what it's worth, I think when the PCA / PCUS split occured, the PCA should have declared the PCUS as apostate. Otherwise, I do not know how we justify a schism?

[Edited on 3-16-2005 by AdamM]

 

[lwadkins]

I think there be a whole lot of "doing evil that good may come" going on as the confessing movement tries to maintain and grow their influence in order to "save the church".