Question for exclusive psalmody proponents

[Sam Jer]

Edit: this is a related post https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/question-for-exclusive-psalmody-opponents.110609/

How would you, as EP proponents, understand different non-psalm songs in the bible?
Under the old covenant, it seems you could write songs, just like you can pray uninspired prayer. There are many examples of this in the old testament, and the song of Moses in Deuteronomy is explicitly commanded to be written, sung, and memorized.
Also in the Gospel of Luke, we have Mary, a women, writing a hymn:

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: For, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; And holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him From generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; He hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, And exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; And the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, In remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, To Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

We also have examples of non-psalm hymns in revelation, particularly, but not exclusively, in chapter 5. In heavenly worship:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As well as earthly worship:

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

You also have some other passages some have claimed is a hymn, such as:

who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And so, how would such passages be explained in an exclusive psalmody setting?
More specifically, was the old testament permission to write hymns abrogated, or have I completely misunderstood it?
Or are uninspired hymns allowed in private worship, but not in publick worship? How does that work?

 

[Charles Johnson]

How would you, as EP proponents, understand different non-psalm songs in the bible?
Under the old covenant, it seems you could write songs, just like you can pray uninspired prayer. There are many examples of this in the old testament, and the song of Moses in Deuteronomy is explicitly commanded to be written, sung, and memorized.
Also in the Gospel of Luke, we have Mary, a women, writing a hymn:

We also have examples of non-psalm hymns in revelation, particularly, but not exclusively, in chapter 5. In heavenly worship:

As well as earthly worship:

You also have some other passages some have claimed is a hymn, such as:

I don't think any of these from the NT are real examples of sung hymns. As for the "song of Mary," the Scripture says Mary "said" it, not Mary "sung" it. It may be sung today, but that doesn't mean Mary intended for it to be sung. The same goes for the "songs" of Zachariah and Simeon.
As for Revelation, the book is an allegory, cover to cover. It would be just as unreasonable to take songs there as songs we should sing, or examples of the kinds of songs we should sing, as it would be to take the massive cube of the New Jerusalem as a design for our Churches.

More specifically, was the old testament permission to write hymns abrogated, or have I completely misunderstood it?
Or are uninspired hymns allowed in private worship, but not in publick worship? How does that work?

There was never a general permission for private individuals to institute songs for the worship of the Church. You give the example of Moses, but Moses was a prophet, and acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not a private individual. His example is not instructive for those who don't share his circumstances.
As for private use of uninspired songs, I personally don't have an issue with it on moral grounds, if they are theologically sound, although I prefer the psalms, and I don't really like other worship songs.

 

[Sam Jer]

I don't think any of these from the NT are real examples of sung hymns. As for the "song of Mary," the Scripture says Mary "said" it, not Mary "sung" it. It may be sung today, but that doesn't mean Mary intended for it to be sung. The same goes for the "songs" of Zachariah and Simeon.
As for Revelation, the book is an allegory, cover to cover. It would be just as unreasonable to take songs there as songs we should sing, or examples of the kinds of songs we should sing, as it would be to take the massive cube of the New Jerusalem as a design for our Churches.

There was never a general permission for private individuals to institute songs for the worship of the Church. You give the example of Moses, but Moses was a prophet, and acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not a private individual. His example is not instructive for those who don't share his circumstances.
As for private use of uninspired songs, I personally don't have an issue with it on moral grounds, if they are theologically sound, although I prefer the psalms, and I don't really like other worship songs.

Would you be okay with metrical versions of the song of Moses, or the Song of Deborah, or Habakkuk? Or is the command to sing psalms specifically speaking of the 150 Psalms and translations of them?

 

[Charles Johnson]

Would you be okay with metrical versions of the song of Moses, or the Song of Deborah, or Habakkuk? Or is the command to sing psalms specifically speaking of the 150 Psalms and translations of them?

I believe that the inclusion of a song in the Psalter is significant in itself, and that the Psalter is something of a closed canon. If a song was left out of the inspired songbook, it is because it was not intended to become a regular part of public worship.

 

[Logan]

Keep in mind that exclusive psalmody is primarily about the belief as to what God has commanded specifically to be sung in corporate worship.

Just the bare fact that Scripture records that someone historically sang or composed a song, does not automatically mean it was intended for, and that we should sing it in, corporate worship. For example, there is no indication Mary (or anyone else) even thought she was composing a song for corporate worship.

With the book of Psalms, I don't think there is a question about that.

 

[Northern Crofter]

the song of Moses in Deuteronomy

I believe that the inclusion of a song in the Psalter is significant in itself, and that the Psalter is something of a closed canon. If a song was left out of the inspired songbook, it is because it was not intended to become a regular part of public worship.

To follow up on that thought, it is significant to note that there is a song of Moses in the Hebrew/Christian psalter (90) so those wanting to bring into public worship other parts of Scripture would have to explain why one song of Moses was included why the other was not, especially when you have some psalms that appear both places (for example, II Samuel 22 and Psalm 18).

There is a position some call IP (inspired praise) that allows the singing of Scripture found outside the psalter - the practice in Geneva during Calvin's day followed this.

 

[Sam Jer]

I believe that the inclusion of a song in the Psalter is significant in itself, and that the Psalter is something of a closed canon. If a song was left out of the inspired songbook, it is because it was not intended to become a regular part of public worship.

What about the song in Deuteronomy 32, that the old covenant church was commanded to sing and memorize? (Deuteronomy 31:19)
Of course, that was under the old covenant, but would you say it is sinful to sing it in the new covenant church?

 

[Charles Johnson]

What about the song in Deuteronomy 32, that the old covenant church was commanded to sing and memorize? (Deuteronomy 31:19)
Of course, that was under the old covenant, but would you say it is sinful to sing it in the new covenant church?

I lean more towards saying that singing non-psalms, since it is not commanded, is an unprofitable and unnecessary additional to worship, than saying it is out-and-out sinful. Of course, some E.P. folks would go further than me in that respect.

 

[RemovedbyRequest]

I lean more towards saying that singing non-psalms, since it is not commanded, is an unprofitable and unnecessary additional to worship, than saying it is out-and-out sinful. Of course, some E.P. folks would go further than me in that respect.

I think Samuel's point is that it is commanded in Deuteronomy 31:19 "Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them"

 

[Charles Johnson]

I think Samuel's point is that it is commanded in Deuteronomy 31:19 "Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them"

Right, for "the children of Israel," closely connected to the Deuteronomic law.

 

[RemovedbyRequest]

Right, for "the children of Israel," closely connected to the Deuteronomic law.

But does that not mean that God commands us to sing a song not in the psalter?

 

[alexandermsmith]

All the non-psalter songs in Scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit. So straight off the bat there is no precedent in Scripture- and certainly no command- so sing uninspired songs in worship. And as was alluded to by Logan, there is no command that these inspired non-psalter songs were to be sung in worship and it wasn't within the context of public worship that they were initially sung/spoken. As for the example of Psalm 90 that is a psalm included in the psalter. The fact Moses composed other songs doesn't mean they can be sung in worship because one of his psalms was included in the psalter.

A song may have been composed to be used for instruction but that is separate from public worship. What the regulative principle is concerned with is what takes place within the context of worship [edited to clarify that the RPW regulates all forms of worship, public, private and secret]. Uninspired songs may be very useful for instructing children but they are not to be included in worship.

 

[Charles Johnson]

But does that not mean that God commands us to sing a song not in the psalter?

It would mean he commanded those in the Old Testament to sing it. Not necessarily us. If the song was "for a testimony against them," to me that is closely connected to the Deuteronomic curses and blessings in the preceding chapters, and the contents and context of the Old Covenant, which is abrogated.

 

[RemovedbyRequest]

All the non-psalter songs in Scripture were inspired by the Holy Spirit. So straight off the bat there is no precedent in Scripture- and certainly no command- so sing uninspired songs in worship. And as was alluded to by Logan, there is no command that these inspired non-psalter songs were to be sung in worship and it wasn't within the context of public worship that they were initially sung/spoken. As for the example of Psalm 90 that is a psalm included in the psalter. The fact Moses composed other songs doesn't mean they can be sung in worship because one of his psalms was included in the psalter.

A song may have been composed to be used for instruction but that is separate from public worship. What the regulative principle is concerned with is what takes place within the context of public worship. Uninspired songs may be very useful for instructing children but they are not to be included in worship.

So the most we can say is that in public worship, we can only sing psalms, but in any other context we are not restricted like that. Saying "at least that song is still inspired" sounds like a retreat from the psalms-only idea.

 

[alexandermsmith]

So the most we can say is that in public worship, we can only sing psalms, but in any other context we are not restricted like that. Saying "at least that song is still inspired" sounds like a retreat from the psalms-only idea.

Just to clarify: I should have said the RPW regulates all worship- public, private and secret- not just public. I've edited the post to reflect this.

So in any formal act of worship we can only sing psalms. Strictly speaking there is no prohibition on singing an inspired or uninspired hymn in a non-worship context. But we have no command or precedent from Scripture to sing the inspired, non-psalter "songs" of the Bible in worship, never mind uninspired songs. However instructive uninspired songs may be, used in an informal context, we are not to intrude uninspired compositions into the worship of God, which He has regulated and of which He is very jealous.

However one could question how profitable it is to regularly engage in the singing of uninspired hymns. My concern would be such a practice could have a detrimental effect on one's piety but there isn't a specific Biblical prohibition of it that I can see. As to the singing of inspired "songs" not included in the psalter, I don't think we see in Scripture that these songs were sung after their initial appearance in the narrative. They were sung/spoken in response to extraordinary providences, not written to be part of the church's songbook.

The "psalms-only idea" is an idea concerning worship. So it's not a retreat of that idea to say that outwith worship one may sing an inspired "song" or uninspired hymn (assuming it is orthodox and agrees with Biblical decorum). One might say "but any singing of a song of praise necessarily involves an act of worship". I think there is a lot to that argument and so I, personally, do not sing uninspired hymns in any context, nor do I sing paraphrases of other portions of Scripture. But the Exclusive Psalmody position really has to do with formal worship.

 

[RemovedbyRequest]

Just to clarify: I should have said the RPW regulates all worship- public, private and secret- not just public. I've edited the post to reflect this.

So in any formal act of worship we can only sing psalms. Strictly speaking there is no prohibition on singing an inspired or uninspired hymn in a non-worship context. But we have no command or precedent from Scripture to sing the inspired, non-psalter "songs" of the Bible in worship, never mind uninspired songs. However instructive uninspired songs may be, used in an informal context, we are not to intrude uninspired compositions into the worship of God, which He has regulated and of which He is very jealous.

However one could question how profitable it is to regularly engage in the singing of uninspired hymns. My concern would be such a practice could have a detrimental effect on one's piety but there isn't a specific Biblical prohibition of it that I can see. As to the singing of inspired "songs" not included in the psalter, I don't think we see in Scripture that these songs were sung after their initial appearance in the narrative. They were sung/spoken in response to extraordinary providences, not written to be part of the church's songbook.

The "psalms-only idea" is an idea concerning worship. So it's not a retreat of that idea to say that outwith worship one may sing an inspired "song" or uninspired hymn (assuming it is orthodox and agrees with Biblical decorum). One might say "but any singing of a song of praise necessarily involves an act of worship". I think there is a lot to that argument and so I, personally, do not sing uninspired hymns in any context, nor do I sing paraphrases of other portions of Scripture. But the Exclusive Psalmody position really has to do with formal worship.

Fair enough, I don't actually have a position I'm just trying to flesh out what I think are some inconsistencies in these arguments, but EP does seem mostly right to me (or at the very least, inspired praise only, like singing ten commandments or other scriptures).

 

[alexanderjames]

Just to clarify: I should have said the RPW regulates all worship- public, private and secret- not just public. I've edited the post to reflect this.

So in any formal act of worship we can only sing psalms. Strictly speaking there is no prohibition on singing an inspired or uninspired hymn in a non-worship context. But we have no command or precedent from Scripture to sing the inspired, non-psalter "songs" of the Bible in worship, never mind uninspired songs. However instructive uninspired songs may be, used in an informal context, we are not to intrude uninspired compositions into the worship of God, which He has regulated and of which He is very jealous.

However one could question how profitable it is to regularly engage in the singing of uninspired hymns. My concern would be such a practice could have a detrimental effect on one's piety but there isn't a specific Biblical prohibition of it that I can see. As to the singing of inspired "songs" not included in the psalter, I don't think we see in Scripture that these songs were sung after their initial appearance in the narrative. They were sung/spoken in response to extraordinary providences, not written to be part of the church's songbook.

The "psalms-only idea" is an idea concerning worship. So it's not a retreat of that idea to say that outwith worship one may sing an inspired "song" or uninspired hymn (assuming it is orthodox and agrees with Biblical decorum). One might say "but any singing of a song of praise necessarily involves an act of worship". I think there is a lot to that argument and so I, personally, do not sing uninspired hymns in any context, nor do I sing paraphrases of other portions of Scripture. But the Exclusive Psalmody position really has to do with formal worship.

This hints at the trouble I have with seeing the distinction between what is considered as "formal worship" as opposed to "informal" in the interpretation of the RPW. I personally don't see this distinction clearly in Scripture. Whether we are gathered in a congregation of hundreds or of two or three, there is the worship of the church of Jesus Christ. I see the principle being that the Father is seeking those to worship Him in spirit and in truth, expressed in song and in the rest of life.

EDIT - Like Jeri, I hadn't realised these were two different threads, this being for EP proponents. I'd be happy to withdraw my post as such.

 

[alexandermsmith]

This hints at the trouble I have with seeing the distinction between what is considered as "formal worship" as opposed to "informal" in the interpretation of the RPW. I personally don't see this distinction clearly in Scripture. Whether we are gathered in a congregation of hundreds or of two or three, there is the worship of the church of Jesus Christ. I see the principle being that the Father is seeking those to worship Him in spirit and in truth, expressed in song and in the rest of life.

EDIT - Like Jeri, I hadn't realised these were two different threads, this being for EP proponents. I'd be happy to withdraw my post as such.

That any form of praise involves, obviously, an act of worship is why I personally refrain from singing uninspired hymns. However I also believe there is a clear distinction between a formal act of worship and an informal. We know that when we are gathered with our family or friends in private worship (the reading and singing of the Word and praying together), or in the public means, we are doing something different from when we are reading a Christian book or listening to, for example, a cd of psalm singing.

 

[MChase]

@Samuel Jerusalem, one thing to keep in mind with these discussions is goalposts move, and they move fast. The Hymn singer will often give an adequate defense of the RPW and then completely abandon it when the rubber meets the road. Arguments about singing Jesus' name and other such things are distractions. The simple question is: what has God required? Then the follow up question is can you prove that Eph. 5 and/or Col. 3 demand the use of uninspired praise? Since there is clear evidence that song and hymn can refer to a psalter selection, the case is closed. There is absolutely nothing in the text that demands the use of uninspired praise.

Now for the other inspired scripture songs. One may come to the conclusion that they are an approved example; I disagree, but at least there is a regulative principle argument being made. John Murray and William Young's excellent OPC minority report left the question open technically, but erred on the side of caution in not seeing them as required.

 

[Sam Jer]

@Samuel Jerusalem, one thing to keep in mind with these discussions is goalposts move, and they move fast.

I noticed that. The other thread keeps going of topic

 

[RemovedbyRequest]

Since there is clear evidence that song and hymn can refer to a psalter selection, the case is closed. There is absolutely nothing in the text that demands the use of uninspired praise.

That can be what Paul was referring to, but that doesn't me it is. Since other songs in scripture (outside the psalter) are sometimes referred to as hymns, why wouldn't Paul have specified that the hymns hes speaking of are the specific ones in the psalter, not hymns in general?

 

[alexandermsmith]

@Samuel Jerusalem, one thing to keep in mind with these discussions is goalposts move, and they move fast. The Hymn singer will often give an adequate defense of the RPW and then completely abandon it when the rubber meets the road. Arguments about singing Jesus' name and other such things are distractions. The simple question is: what has God required? Then the follow up question is can you prove that Eph. 5 and/or Col. 3 demand the use of uninspired praise? Since there is clear evidence that song and hymn can refer to a psalter selection, the case is closed. There is absolutely nothing in the text that demands the use of uninspired praise.

Now for the other inspired scripture songs. One may come to the conclusion that they are an approved example; I disagree, but at least there is a regulative principle argument being made. John Murray and William Young's excellent OPC minority report left the question open technically, but erred on the side of caution in not seeing them as required.

It should also be noted that, as well as "hymn" and "song" being terms used in the psalter, in Colossians 3:16 it expressly stipulates "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." [emphasis added]. That with which we are to teach and admonish one another (in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs) is the Word of Christ, not uninspired songs.

 

[MChase]

That can be what Paul was referring to, but that doesn't me it is. Since other songs in scripture (outside the psalter) are sometimes referred to as hymns, why wouldn't Paul have specified that the hymns hes speaking of are the specific ones in the psalter, not hymns in general?

You would have to prove that to be the case here. Like @alexandermsmith stated, the preponderance of evidence goes in the other direction. πσαλμος and υμνος in context are nothing other than ο λογος του χριστου. Christ's words he sings over us and sings with us are nothing else but his own inspired words, canonically collected in the psalter.

 

[RemovedbyRequest]

You would have to prove that to be the case here. Like @alexandermsmith stated, the preponderance of evidence goes in the other direction. πσαλμος and υμνος in context are nothing other than ο λογος του χριστου. Christ's words he sings over us and sings with us are nothing else but his own inspired words, canonically collected in the psalter.

That's a good point that "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" is an expansion on the thought "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly".

Is there any reason why that cannot refer to the more general 'message' of Christ, the gospel, rather than specific scriptures? Like an uninspired song that explains the gospel, for example. Keeping in mind that in ephesians 5 it only says 'be filled with the Spirit', and doesn't mention the 'word of Christ'. Or is there a reason that it must be taken as singing scripture word for word?

 

[Sam Jer]

It should also be noted that, as well as "hymn" and "song" being terms used in the psalter, in Colossians 3:16 it expressly stipulates "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." [emphasis added]. That with which we are to teach and admonish one another (in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs) is the Word of Christ, not uninspired songs.

Good point.
Now if you excuse me, I will go look for a good tune for psalm 50

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Good point.
Now if you excuse me, I will go look for a good tune for psalm 50

You may know about these resources. The 1650 split-leaf Psalter app (@Logan helped design it); and The Psalter App online (https://alpha.psalterapp.com/), where you can print out the words within the music, pretty nifty. Designed by a young man at @MChase ‘s church. I’m partial to the FCC tunes offered with each Psalm.

 

[MChase]

Good point.
Now if you excuse me, I will go look for a good tune for psalm 50

This is not the most well known tune, but is a beautiful one.

Ps 50 v 1-6 Golden Hill

Fraught with error, but a worthwhile endeavour.

on.soundcloud.com