Romans 8:26-27

[InSlaveryToChrist]

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought : but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

From John Murray's Roman commentary,

(4) The groanings will have to be understood as the groanings which are registered in the hearts of the children of God. We cannot reasonably think of the Holy Spirit himself, apart from the agency and instrumentality of those on whose behalf he intercedes, as presenting his intercessions to the Father in the form of his own groanings. The reference to the hearts in verse 27 clearly implies that the hearts are those of the children of God. It must be, therefore, in their hearts that the groanings take place and the groanings are those of the saints. They are, however, the media of the Holy Spirit's intercession and they ascend to the throne of grace in the form of groanings.

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding Murray here. Since our hearts are the instruments of the intercession of the Holy Spirit, the groanings in our hearts, that are of "the mind of the Spirit" and "according to the will of God", are groanings of our hearts (i.e., they are our own groanings). Although we cannot search our hearts to see the thoughts and intentions thereof, God can, and He finds thoughts and intentions of wisdom and love and counts them as prayer and never denies them. These secret "groanings" are the opposite of what the Bible calls "secret sins" in our hearts.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

*bump*

 

[Hamalas]

Sorry to be thick, but could you perhaps break this down for me. What exactly is your question?

 

[Eved]

and He finds thoughts and intentions of wisdom and love and counts them as prayer and never denies them. These secret "groanings" are the opposite of what the Bible calls "secret sins" in our hearts.

I'm not sure how this flows from your quoted text or reference from Mr. Murray. The rest of it looks fine.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

and He finds thoughts and intentions of wisdom and love and counts them as prayer and never denies them. These secret "groanings" are the opposite of what the Bible calls "secret sins" in our hearts.

I'm not sure how this flows from your quoted text or reference from Mr. Murray. The rest of it looks fine.

Aaah! I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention. All I'm actually asking is if there is anything faulty in my understanding of Murray's text and the conclusions I've drawn by it and the rest of Scripture.

 

[VictorBravo]

These secret "groanings" are the opposite of what the Bible calls "secret sins" in our hearts.

I don't think they are "secret" groanings. They are ignorant groanings.

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought."

I don't think one would properly contrast the groanings with secret sins. It is more along the lines that our own sinful, fallen, damaged minds cannot fully grasp how to properly pray as we ought--that is our infirmity. We are assured that this does not matter because of the help of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, our hearts are indeed aligned with God (also by the work of the Spirit), and our hearts have a desire to please God (as Paul shows in Romans 7:14-23). We are still affected by indwelling sin and that makes our attempts to pray properly to God to be essentially wordless groanings. Nonetheless, by the Spirit's work, they are pleasing to God.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

These secret "groanings" are the opposite of what the Bible calls "secret sins" in our hearts.

I don't think they are "secret" groanings. They are ignorant groanings.

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought."

I don't think one would properly contrast the groanings with secret sins. It is more along the lines that our own sinful, fallen, damaged minds cannot fully grasp how to properly pray as we ought--that is our infirmity.

This is interesting, because the very definition I've been using for secret sins is that they are sins of ignorance. What, then, is a "secret sin" in your understanding of Scripture?

 

[VictorBravo]

This is interesting, because the very definition I've been using for secret sins is that they are sins of ignorance. What, then, is a "secret sin" in your understanding of Scripture?

I take secret sin to mean sin that we indulge in but cover up. Like Israel in 2 Kings 17:9: "And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God...."

I haven't run across it meaning sin we don't know about. The word "secret" implies covering up knowledge.

A Spurgeon sermon on Secret Sins pretty much describes what I'm talking about: Secret Sins

I am going after a certain class of men who have sins not unknown to themselves, but secret to their fellow creatures.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

This is interesting, because the very definition I've been using for secret sins is that they are sins of ignorance. What, then, is a "secret sin" in your understanding of Scripture?

I take secret sin to mean sin that we indulge in but cover up. Like Israel in 2 Kings 17:9: "And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God...."

I haven't run across it meaning sin we don't know about. The word "secret" implies covering up knowledge.

A Spurgeon sermon on Secret Sins pretty much describes what I'm talking about: Secret Sins

I am going after a certain class of men who have sins not unknown to themselves, but secret to their fellow creatures.

I know what you're talking about, and I even made a thread about this not a long time ago. What I was told, in the end, was that there are sins we are ignorant of in distinction from sins that we are consciously covering up from other men and God ultimately.

I made a research of the Bible's usage of the term "secret sin" in the past and suprisingly Psalm 19:12 seems to be the lone exception and is definitely not about covering our sin from God, but actually about asking God to reveal to us sins we are not seeing.

But the exact term of "secret sin" aside, certainly you are not suggesting there are no sins we are not conscious of, are you? And so, this is the type of "secret sin" I'm contrasting with our secret/ignorant groanings. Are you ok with that?

 

[VictorBravo]

But the exact term of "secret sin" aside, certainly you are not suggesting there are no sins we are not conscious of, are you? And so, this is the type of "secret sin" I'm contrasting with our secret/ignorant groanings. Are you ok with that?

Right, I agree there are sins we are ignorant of. I'm still a little hesitant to say they are "opposite" our groanings. I'd go along with saying our ignorant sinful desires are opposite our ignorant prayers, though.

I don't want to get overly picky, but it just seems to be awkward to try to compare sin with a prayer. They are different categories. One is an accomplished action (sin) and the other is an expression of desire.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

But the exact term of "secret sin" aside, certainly you are not suggesting there are no sins we are not conscious of, are you? And so, this is the type of "secret sin" I'm contrasting with our secret/ignorant groanings. Are you ok with that?

Right, I agree there are sins we are ignorant of. I'm still a little hesitant to say they are "opposite" our groanings. I'd go along with saying our ignorant sinful desires are opposite our ignorant prayers, though.

I don't want to get overly picky, but it just seems to be awkward to try to compare sin with a prayer. They are different categories. One is an accomplished action (sin) and the other is an expression of desire.

I see now. Thank you for the clarification! End of this topic.