The Great Tribulation

[Missionary]

Hello brothers, what is your position regarding the great tribulation? Do you think this corresponds to the entire history of the church or is it a short period of seven years before Christ's return? Or some other different position?

 

[RamistThomist]

Amillennial here, but I believe it refers to a period before the Lord's return. The sequence in Matthew 24 is clear: the abomination of desolation causes the great tribulation (megala thlipsis, I think the Greek is). If the GT refers to the whole church age, then it doesn't make much sense to see how Titus's actions in 70 AD cause the suffering of a Christian today.

 

[DanSSwing]

Hello brothers, what is your position regarding the great tribulation? Do you think this corresponds to the entire history of the church or is it a short period of seven years before Christ's return? Or some other different position?

I believe it occurred around 70 AD before Jesus returned in judgment on Jerusalem.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

I believe it occurred around 70 AD before Jesus returned in judgment on Jerusalem.

Same.

 

[Missionary]

Amillennial here, but I believe it refers to a period before the Lord's return. The sequence in Matthew 24 is clear: the abomination of desolation causes the great tribulation (megala thlipsis, I think the Greek is). If the GT refers to the whole church age, then it doesn't make much sense to see how Titus's actions in 70 AD cause the suffering of a Christian today.

How cool brother! I think so too... And what do you think about the antichrist? Do you think he is the Pope? as they believed at the time of the reform...

 

[RamistThomist]

How cool brother! I think so too... And what do you think about the antichrist? Do you think he is the Pope? as they believed at the time of the reform...

No idea who he is. I think the pope is the beast from the sea, not the beast from the land

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello "Missionary" (care to share your name?), welcome to PB!

It appears from Scripture there is periodic great tribulation up through the NT church age, but THE great tribulation will be at the end of the age, increasing until Armageddon where the entire global church is targeted for destruction. In the middle of the attempt of that the Lord returns to call His people to Himself, and mete fury upon those who harmed His bride.

The popes were antichrists, but THE antichrist will appear at the end of the age and orchestrate – at the leading of his boss the devil – the attempt to destroy the Christian church worldwide. Of the Amillennial school here.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Hello brothers, what is your position regarding the great tribulation? Do you think this corresponds to the entire history of the church or is it a short period of seven years before Christ's return? Or some other different position?

If you read the Olivet Discourse, the GT was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, and especially the temple, in AD 70.

Ppl read this: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,[Matthew 24:29-31] and they think that Jesus has went from speaking of judgment against Jerusalem and the temple, to speaking of His second advent. But not so, as He said this: Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.[vss 34,35] “This generation” is not some future generation but that generation when Christ was living.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

If you read the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, you’ll see a lot of overlap. The vast majority of Revelation was fulfilled in AD 70. Obviously, the second advent and the day of judgment hasn’t occurred yet, as that is future.

 

[Deho]

If you read the Olivet Discourse, the GT was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, and especially the temple, in AD 70.

Ppl read this: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,[Matthew 24:29-31] and they think that Jesus has went from speaking of judgment against Jerusalem and the temple, to speaking of His second advent. But not so, as He said this: Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.[vss 34,35] “This generation” is not some future generation but that generation when Christ was living.

Yes I heartily agree…could you or anyone help point out to me how about the great apostasy (in the same chapter and verses) that was also mentioned by the Lord Jesus Christ?
Matthew 24:22-31? in particular, “if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” and we know the elect will not be deceived because of God’s faithfulness and mercy in the preservation of the saints.

Also comparing scripture with scripture 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, referring to the great apostasy before His second advent. These two books and verses seem to concur about a great falling away in future not in AD70?

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Your comments and discourse on this topic would be much appreciated.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Yes I heartily agree…could you or anyone help point out to me how about the great apostasy (in the same chapter and verses) that was also mentioned by the Lord Jesus Christ?
Matthew 24:22-31? in particular, “if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” and we know the elect will not be deceived because of God’s faithfulness and mercy in the preservation of the saints.

Also comparing scripture with scripture 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, referring to the great apostasy before His second advent. These two books and verses seem to concur about a great falling away in future not in AD70?

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Your comments and discourse on this topic would be much appreciated.

I think this touches upon your questions asked to me:


But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!”[Acts 5:34-39]

Even during this time ppl were being led astray by false prophets. I’m not a hyper Preterist but a Orthodox Preterist, that sees the vast major of Revelation being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. Obviously, the second advent and resurrection haven’t happened yet.

 

[Eyedoc84]

Hello brothers, what is your position regarding the great tribulation? Do you think this corresponds to the entire history of the church or is it a short period of seven years before Christ's return? Or some other different position?

I’ll risk wading in these waters. I think the Olivet Discourse speaks broadly regarding the entire church age until the Second Coming. I think Jesus touches on a few particulars regarding Jerusalem and the temple only because of the apostles’ preoccupation with it, and a way of saying “Will you stop it with the temple already?”

The church age is characterized by tribulation. This is a constant refrain of the NT, from the gospels, to Acts, through the epistles, until Jesus’ return in Rev 19/20. There was A great tribulation upon the city and the temple when Jesus left them spiritually desolate for their rejection of him. But to focus on those events in Jerusalem is a mistake made both by preterists and dispensationalists.

 

[Sam Jer]

Amillennial here, but I believe it refers to a period before the Lord's return. The sequence in Matthew 24 is clear: the abomination of desolation causes the great tribulation (megala thlipsis, I think the Greek is). If the GT refers to the whole church age, then it doesn't make much sense to see how Titus's actions in 70 AD cause the suffering of a Christian today.

What is the urgent fleeing about?

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains: and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: and let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (Mark 13:14-20)

Also, what are these things?

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:27-31)

 

[Sam Jer]

Hello "Missionary" (care to share your name?), welcome to PB!

It appears from Scripture there is periodic great tribulation up through the NT church age, but THE great tribulation will be at the end of the age, increasing until Armageddon where the entire global church is targeted for destruction. In the middle of the attempt of that the Lord returns to call His people to Himself, and mete fury upon those who harmed His bride.

The popes were antichrists, but THE antichrist will appear at the end of the age and orchestrate – at the leading of his boss the devil – the attempt to destroy the Christian church worldwide. Of the Amillennial school here.

Would you care to explain Luke's (second) account?

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

I believe it occurred around 70 AD before Jesus returned in judgment on Jerusalem.

How would you explain this passage in Luke?

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (Luke 17:20-37)

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Samuel,

Have you access to Wm. Hendriksen's NT commentaries? I attach a paper on this topic I gleaned from them a while back: From William Hendriksen’s Commentaries, on Luke and Romans / Lk 21:24 & Ro 11:25, 26

Luke 21:24. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and will be carried off as captives into all the nations …

 

[Deho]

I think this touches upon your questions asked to me:


But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!”[Acts 5:34-39]

Even during this time ppl were being led astray by false prophets. I’m not a hyper Preterist but a Orthodox Preterist, that sees the vast major of Revelation being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. Obviously, the second advent and resurrection haven’t happened yet.

 

[Deho]

WCF quoted the verses in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, to refer to the pope as the embodiment of the works of Satan and anti-Christ very accurately, and although there are many anti-Christs in the world, there is not one of great similitude as to how this person (pope) is worshiped and revealed as the “vicar of Christ”.

Also throughout the history of the Church she (corrupted RC) had greatly persecuted God’s people who were bound captive to the Word of God, and martyred them.

Maybe is a little difficult to reconcile if the GT is pointing specifically to AD70 only, but not throughout the entire history concerning the Church of Christ, where during the great reformation God’s people were also greatly persecuted and killed for staying true to His WORD. In Rev 17:3, it referred the harlot who sat on scarlot colored beast 17:6 drunken with the blood of the saints and blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

Even until this day (last days) 2 Tim 3:1-13, Christians all over the world are going through great tribulation, greatly vilified and persecuted in the world by its system, principalities and prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2, 6:12). Will there arise the final anti-Christ culminating in a final GT, before our Lord’s triumphant return?

 

[Ed Walsh]

It appears from Scripture there is periodic great tribulation up through the NT church age

Hi Steve,
I think we might have found something we agree with. Who was it again who said, "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world, you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

I have often said about the unresting war inside me that if I found out we would never leave this world or our present state of war, inside and outside.
You are an inspiration to us all. May the Lord you love bless you in ways you have never asked or even thought.

Ed