Views On Creationism...
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Bookmeister
Puritan Board Freshman
Framework.
chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
I'm framework in terms of the literary structure of the text, and undecided on the age of the earth. They are separate questions.
You could be framework and still believe in 6/24, young earth and all of that. In fact, the 6/24 and framework view is my position. As for age of the earth ... I'm not competent to work through all of the evidence, and nobody seems to help me. Both sides argue past one another without genuine clash in the debate.
You could be framework and still believe in 6/24, young earth and all of that. In fact, the 6/24 and framework view is my position. As for age of the earth ... I'm not competent to work through all of the evidence, and nobody seems to help me. Both sides argue past one another without genuine clash in the debate.
raekwon
Puritan Board Junior
Hah.
I am a young earth creationist and geocentrist ( earth is at the center of the solar system and universe) and global flooder (high mountains pushed up after Noah, all land covered with water)
Having said that I am also in the camp that believes this earth was very very different before and after the fall (and different again before and after the flood.) A day in Eden could have been 48 hours or 100 hours or 300 hours, and photosynthesis could have been different before the curse, we just don't know. So I am in the 6 day- but who knows how many hours- camp. Long enough for Adam to name all the animals! I figure the 6000 year old estimate is OK but maybe it was 8000 of our current years, or 10,000 or 12,000.(Not millions or billions) I am uncomfortable with extrapolating our current astronomical paradigm back to Eden before the fall too exactly in hours, we just don't know. I tend to think at creation there were 360 days in a year, perfectly aligned with the moon.
Having said that I am also in the camp that believes this earth was very very different before and after the fall (and different again before and after the flood.) A day in Eden could have been 48 hours or 100 hours or 300 hours, and photosynthesis could have been different before the curse, we just don't know. So I am in the 6 day- but who knows how many hours- camp. Long enough for Adam to name all the animals! I figure the 6000 year old estimate is OK but maybe it was 8000 of our current years, or 10,000 or 12,000.(Not millions or billions) I am uncomfortable with extrapolating our current astronomical paradigm back to Eden before the fall too exactly in hours, we just don't know. I tend to think at creation there were 360 days in a year, perfectly aligned with the moon.
chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, I hold that the literary framework of Genesis is a historical account of actual events.
chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, I hold that the literary framework of Genesis is a historical account of actual events.
That was a GREAT comeback!
The main point regarding the first books of the Bible is that God created out of nothing and that it was very good. Man is in a creator-creature relationship with a God who personally intervenes in the universe before the fall in the covenant of works, and after the fall in the covenant of grace. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
ColdSilverMoon
Puritan Board Senior
Most people on here are Young Earth. I am Old Earth, along with a few others - we are certainly in the minority.
Bookmeister
Puritan Board Freshman
Andrew refuses to believe we both may be correct. I just choose to not go beyond the text.
You mean the Hebrew narrative text with more was-consecutives than any other OT passage?Bookmeister said:
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Most of my ministry I was old earth (Hugh Ross variety). Since reconsidering the issue a few years ago, I am YEC.
Listening to a couple of astrophysicists, several geologists, a plate tectonician, an award winning geneticist, and a molecular biologist made me feel much better about the position I saw the text inexorably leading to. The Framework theory strikes me as problematical exegetically. It always seemed an overly clever, overly elaborate, virtually incomprehensible fig leaf for people who want to have their cake and eat it too.
Honestly, Genesis 1-3 is the seed plot for SOOOOO much in the rest of the Bible. Take it figuratively, and you will have a variety of downstream problems with Adam-Christ, sin, death, marriage, homosexuality, the role of men and women, etc.
Shifting views of Genesis 1-3 may not have been the primary cause of theological liberalism. However, insofar as Darwinism was THE intellectual expression of modernist revisionist rebellion against God in the 19th century, accommodational views (Chalmers and his Gap theory in the 19th century and the Framework theory in the 20th), theological accommodation was a material cause of liberalism in the church.
Listening to a couple of astrophysicists, several geologists, a plate tectonician, an award winning geneticist, and a molecular biologist made me feel much better about the position I saw the text inexorably leading to. The Framework theory strikes me as problematical exegetically. It always seemed an overly clever, overly elaborate, virtually incomprehensible fig leaf for people who want to have their cake and eat it too.
Honestly, Genesis 1-3 is the seed plot for SOOOOO much in the rest of the Bible. Take it figuratively, and you will have a variety of downstream problems with Adam-Christ, sin, death, marriage, homosexuality, the role of men and women, etc.
Shifting views of Genesis 1-3 may not have been the primary cause of theological liberalism. However, insofar as Darwinism was THE intellectual expression of modernist revisionist rebellion against God in the 19th century, accommodational views (Chalmers and his Gap theory in the 19th century and the Framework theory in the 20th), theological accommodation was a material cause of liberalism in the church.
I should probably clarify that Piper said that he leans toward the traditional young earth view. But he said that the other viable position that he sees is the framework model.
---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------
I could be wrong about that. Whatever view John Sailhamer holds, that's the other view that Piper sees as a possibility.
---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------
I could be wrong about that. Whatever view John Sailhamer holds, that's the other view that Piper sees as a possibility.
chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
First of all, the framework view is based upon a narrative structure, not a poetic form. Prose can be highly structured too.
Secondly, framework does not deny an historical Adam, the fall, or any such thing.
That some who embrace Darwinism might be drawn to the framework view is no argument against the framework view itself. The framework view doesn't require Old Earth or evolution or non-historicity or any such thing. Those are separate questions entirely.
Secondly, framework does not deny an historical Adam, the fall, or any such thing.
That some who embrace Darwinism might be drawn to the framework view is no argument against the framework view itself. The framework view doesn't require Old Earth or evolution or non-historicity or any such thing. Those are separate questions entirely.
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TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
Dr. M is on a roll. It either means what it says or doesn't. Really, when Scripture gives Adam's age, was the figure his age? If he was 930 years old at his death, then the days are literal. Or......930 means, well, what? a million years?
Like the FV junk, when you change stuff at the beginning of an assembly line, you've got to change everything else down the line.
Like the FV junk, when you change stuff at the beginning of an assembly line, you've got to change everything else down the line.
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