To what extent does the church have a right into your personal business?

[Scott Bushey]

Is anything in your life divorced from your church membership and elder oversight? If so, what would those things be?

 

[Dachaser]

Is anything in your life divorced from your church membership and elder oversight? If so, what would those things be?

My wife and children. my job, and basically anything not related to church activities.

 

[Gforce9]

Scott,
I hadn't thought much about this specifically, but I think of the charge to me as a member of the OPC and the charge to the session over me. I think this means they have more "right" than the individualistic, American, evangelical mindset is willing to grant. Since doctrine and life are both covered in the charge, the application may be broad. I don't expect the session to plan my lunches for me, but I would fully expect them to help correct myself and family if life and practice were out of step with our shared (and publically committed to) Christian beliefs.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Such a question appears to be one having to do with the proper nature, exercise, and limits of church power.

The OPC Form of Government addresses that question in Chapter 3 ("The Nature and Exercise of Church Power") in sections 3-5, citing two relevant places in the WCF:

3. All church power is only ministerial and declarative, for the Holy Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith and practice. No church judicatory may presume to bind the conscience by making laws on the basis of its own authority; all its decisions should be founded upon the Word of God. "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in anything, contrary to his Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship" (Confession of Faith, Chapter XX, Section 2).

4. All church power is wholly moral or spiritual. No church officers or judicatories possess any civil jurisdiction; they may not inflict any civil penalties nor may they seek the aid of the civil power in the exercise of their jurisdiction further than may be necessary for civil protection and security.

5. Nevertheless, church government is a valid and authentic jurisdiction to which Christians are commanded to submit themselves. Therefore the decisions of church officers when properly rendered and if in accord with the Word of God "are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in his Word" (Confession of Faith, Chapter XXXI, Section 2).

Peace,
Alan

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I don't expect the session to plan my lunches for me, but I would fully expect them to help correct myself and family if life and practice were out of step with our shared (and publically committed to) Christian beliefs.

Indeed. The church possesses the keys to bind and to loose. The current modern evangelistic mindset that would claim the church has no say in a member's "private lives" is out of bounds. (e.g., Point 5 of Rev. Strange's quote above.)

 

[SolaScriptura]

Many would suggest that church leadership have no business in a member's "personal life" unless they are invited in.

 

[Dachaser]

Scott,
I hadn't thought much about this specifically, but I think of the charge to me as a member of the OPC and the charge to the session over me. I think this means they have more "right" than the individualistic, American, evangelical mindset is willing to grant. Since doctrine and life are both covered in the charge, the application may be broad. I don't expect the session to plan my lunches for me, but I would fully expect them to help correct myself and family if life and practice were out of step with our shared (and publically committed to) Christian beliefs.

There is a biblical balance to be maintained on this issue though, a son one extreme, there are Christians who feel no accountability to anyone other than Jesus Himself, and on the other extreme, there are groups such as in the so called Shepherding Movement that pretty much told you who to marry, what job could have etc.

 

[Gforce9]

My wife and children. my job, and basically anything not related to church activities.

Respectfully, David, I plead that you and the officers responsible for you reconsider. If what your family believes or practices or your character at work is of no concern or off limits to those with spiritual charge over you, there is only danger ahead. I say this as one who struggles with rebellion daily
..

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

My wife and children. my job, and basically anything not related to church activities.

Rest assured, if you are abusing your wife, abusing your children, and or selling drugs as a job, I am confident your local church should have something to say and do in the matter.

In other words, there is more elaboration needed to your statement than what you have claimed.

 

[JimmyH]

Just perusing the OPC Book of Church Discipline ;
https://www.opc.org/BCO/BD.html

Chapter I
The Nature and Purposes of Discipline
1. Ecclesiastical discipline is the exercise of that authority which the Lord Jesus Christ has committed to the visible church for the preservation of its purity, peace, and good order.

2. Administrative discipline is concerned with the maintenance of good order in the government of the church in other than judicial cases. The purpose of its exercise is that all rights may be preserved and all obligations faithfully discharged.

3. Judicial discipline is concerned with the prevention and correction of offenses, an offense being defined as anything in the doctrine or practice of a member of the church which is contrary to the Word of God. The purpose of judicial discipline is to vindicate the honor of Christ, to promote the purity of his church, and to reclaim the offender.

4. All members of the church, both communicants and those who are members by virtue of baptism only, are under the care of the church, and subject to ecclesiastical discipline including administrative and judicial discipline.

When I was accepted as a member of my congregation I had to take an oath to be subject to discipline, should it be necessary, by the session of my OPC.

 

[Gforce9]

There is a biblical balance to be maintained on this issue though, a son one extreme, there are Christians who feel no accountability to anyone other than Jesus Himself, and on the other extreme, there are groups such as in the so called Shepherding Movement that pretty much told you who to marry, what job could have etc.

Most certainly, there are abusers of the authority given them. Shame and judgment await them. This does not negate God's authority via church officers, however...

 

[fredtgreco]

Most certainly, there are abusers of the authority given them. Shame and judgment await them. This does not negate God's authority via church officers, however...

abusus non tollit usum, "abuse does not preclude proper use."

 

[Gforce9]

Many would suggest that church leadership have no business in a member's "personal life" unless they are invited in.

Ben,
This is what I regularly witnessed in my time (20+ years) in evangelical circles. What a sad commentary on both parties... I have a good and open relationship with my session; they know my foibles and my joys and they still love me....

 

[Gforce9]

abusus non tollit usum, "abuse does not preclude proper use."

Fred,
I'm not ready for educated Latin yet; I'm still working on my pig Latin

 

[RamistThomist]

Here is an issue that often comes up in the Gothard/Vision Forum type circles: if the session finds out you and your spouse are using birth control (NFP, condoms, etc; not even "the pill") can they discipline you?

*Note: I am not arguing for or against birth control in any or all of its forms. Just using it as an example

 

[Scott Bushey]

Jacob,
I don't believe the church at large is solid on this issue; I recall a pastor telling me years ago that if we didn't use any wisdom in planning a family, it could result in disaster. He said, " Do you think that it would it bring God glory if you were on state support, couldn't provide adequately for your family, etc. after having 9 kids?"

My personal opinion is that it is a church issue and yes they can discipline. This brings up things like Coitus Interuptus and could the church as well, discipline someone admitting to using this method? I believe most churches don't get involved here because most times, information like this is kept in one's pocket.

 

[Username4000]

Here is an issue that often comes up in the Gothard/Vision Forum type circles: if the session finds out you and your spouse are using birth control (NFP, condoms, etc; not even "the pill") can they discipline you?

An appropriate line would seem to be that a church can discipline for sin, but not for their own additional preferences. In the PCA, for instance, BCO 29-1 spells this out. If I take a job with a certain company that wronged them somehow, they can advise me about this, but not put me under discipline to get me to quit. If that job requires me to sin (do unnecessary work on the Lord's Day, or it's a job at an abortion mill), then they would be able to discipline me.

In your example, a wise church would understand this to be vague enough that there is legitimate disagreement over it. Scripture doesn't conclusively prove that these are sin, and our subordinate standards do not speak to the issue at all. Therefore, it would be very unlikely to come to the level of discipline. If you're at an abusive church, then you have your presbytery and GA as additional courts of appeal at which to raise this same objection.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

I quoted as I did above from the OPC Form of Government to highlight the spiritual nature and exercise of church power.

Where the debate will come in for those exercising church power in a ministerial and declarative fashion (which is what we, particularly as Reformed, over against Romanists, believe) is on issues like Jacob cited: are Christians free to practice (non-abortive) forms of birth control? How detailed should inquiry into such be made (should household visits investigate such and other issues--like all the specifics of one's viewing and listening habits, for instance?)?

It seems to me that a good deal of wisdom and discretion should be employed here. We are not lords over one another (Romans 14), but we are properly accountable to one another (and this is broader than just to the leadership--there is a proper one-anothering aspect here). It seems to me that even in this we tend to focus on certain things more than another (sins that seem lurid) as opposed to pride, envy, gossip, slander, etc., sins that are as condemned in Pauline catalogs of sin as much as the more seedy ones are.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Pergamum]

A church can discipline for sin, but not for their own additional preferences.

BUT....many authoritarian types think that most things fall into the category of sin or not sin and not into the category of personal preferences.

I have heard of Reformed Baptist elders asking for pay stubs from congregants to make sure they were tithing. A normal person would say, "None of your business buddy." But strangely enough, many parishioners are conditioned to believe that such requests do not cross personal boundaries and are not offended when, in fact, they should be.

 

[Gforce9]

I have heard of Reformed Baptist elders asking for pay stubs from congregants to make sure they were tithing. A normal person would say, "None of your business buddy." But strangely enough, many parishioners are conditioned to believe that such requests do not cross personal boundaries and are not offended when, in fact, they should be.

Perg,
I agree that there is liberty of conscience and that it should be carefully protected. I would also acquiesce that there is some number of over-bearing folk in office out there. To collect pay stubs at offering time is certainly out-of-bounds. For the Deacons or a Session to ask about or even insist the producing of income/expenditures when someone is asking for financial help would be wholly appropriate, I think. A given situation may dictate the level of "intrusion" and sometimes an "intrusion" (as perceived by the intrusee) is the duty of the office-bearer, no? Let us pray for our officers!

 

[Jeri Tanner]

What about the issue of family worship? I've wondered what the standard for inquiry into this would be in the various reformed churches. In churches we have been in, it was left a private matter to the families.

 

[Pergamum]

Perg,
I agree that there is liberty of conscience and that it should be carefully protected. I would also acquiesce that there is some number of over-bearing folk in office out there. To collect pay stubs at offering time is certainly out-of-bounds. For the Deacons or a Session to ask about or even insist the producing of income/expenditures when someone is asking for financial help would be wholly appropriate, I think. A given situation may dictate the level of "intrusion" and sometimes an "intrusion" (as perceived by the intrusee) is the duty of the office-bearer, no? Let us pray for our officers!

How are you determining what is appropriate and not appropriate? What are the principles involved?

The Reformed Baptist church-goer who went to this RB Church in Kentucky reasoned, since it was the duty of the elders to ensure holy conduct among the members, then it was totally appropriate for elders to make sure giving to the church was being done because this is one aspect of worship.

What happens when a lay member believes something is not appropriate but the elder thinks it is perfectly appropriate? Especially in churches where obedience to elders is emphasized?

 

[jwithnell]

I am eternally grateful for those who watch over me!

In Presbyterian circles, we can refer matters to the other courts of the church and this provides protection against going beyond the powers given.

Generally, wisdom suggests careful consideration even when Christian liberty might be invoked. Those better acquainted with the scriptures are an ally against the world

 

[timfost]

Fred,
I'm not ready for educated Latin yet; I'm still working on my pig Latin

Emay ootay.

 

[Gforce9]

1- How are you determining what is appropriate and not appropriate? What are the principles involved?

2- The Reformed Baptist church-goer who went to this RB Church in Kentucky reasoned, 3- since it was the duty of the elders to ensure holy conduct among the members, then it was totally appropriate for elders to make sure giving to the church was being done because this is one aspect of worship.

4- What happens when a lay member believes something is not appropriate but the elder thinks it is perfectly appropriate? Especially in churches where obedience to elders is emphasized?

1- The principles are laid out in our respective confessions.
2- This is one area where the independent ecclesiology can fail the saints.
3- It is the duty of the officers in matters faith and practice. If they overstep their bounds, there should be a place to appeal....
4- The session represents the people and one can appeal to the presbytery if the member believes he was not treated properly at the session level. No government is perfect, because people are imperfect, but the mechanism is in place for the presbyterian.

I really don't mean to sound condescending....please hear that. I'm trying to stay with procedures and not be offensive.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Greg is right.

I cannot imagine one of our sessions/diaconates doing that "let's-look-at-your-pay-stub-to-see-if-you're-tithing" business because it would be perceived as a violation of the proper power of the church. That church power is ministerial and declarative, moral and spiritual, implies that the church has no warrant to exercise force (which pertains to the sword and the rod not the keys) and such an action as "requiring" pay stubs is coercive.

There is no uniform position among us (in the OPC) as to the continuing requirement of the tithe. Even if a particular church thought that there was and that there was an obligation for members to render it (all agree that there is an obligation to give), sessions would not seek to be coercive in ascertaining its payment; if they were, if they did what the Reformed Baptists cited did, which is hard to imagine, such would be subject to appeal to higher judicatories. The church as a whole (through its GA) would never uphold such a coercive action.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Ben Zartman]

While I think it appropriate for elders to ask, during an oversight visit, "Are you tithing?" It would be inappropriate for them to seek proof. Love believes all things; bears all things. My elders would have to be pretty convinced that someone was lying about it to the destruction of their souls before they began prying that hard.
In half a decade now at our current church (RB), I have never been asked an invasive question by the elders, though they know more of my life and habits than any other elders at other churches I've been at. Their shepherding method is to get involved, to enter into the burdens of their members, to know each one personally, and to exhort privately where necessary. I think they do it quite well, and I'm grateful for it.
I also know as much or more about them and their private lives as they know of mine--we are all marching heavenward together, bearing one another's burdens, praying for one another and sharing our joys and sorrows. There is not much about my private life I'd not be willing to share, if they asked: but they don't care to ask unnecessarily.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Are financial offerings/church support, compulsory? If they are, what means does the church have at it's disposal to make sure the flock is not sinning by not contributing? Envelopes?

 

[Gforce9]

Are financial offerings/church support, compulsory? If they are, what means does the church have at it's disposal to make sure the flock is not sinning by not contributing? Envelopes?

Giving is the Christians joy and duty....according to the Scripture. I think a session should "think the best" of a member unless there is good reason not to. Any corrective action should not be putative, but restorative in nature. There may be unusual circumstances that may require an unusual response, but that would not the norm and I know with joyous certitude, that my session would treat any unusual circumstance gently and with much prayer.......

 

[Scott Bushey]

Greg,
Not that I disagree w/ anything you have written, are any sins outside of the over sight of our church elders? If not giving is sinful, wouldn’t it follow that some type of consideration be given in regards to giving?