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Yes, our forgiveness should be contingent on God's forgiving us. If a person doesn't repent then his problem is with God. God will judge the unrepentant.
Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Rom 12:Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
But isn't God's forgiveness of us contingent upon our repentance? Therefore if our forgiveness is to be like God's perhaps we should only forgive the repentant.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just playing "devil's advocate" because that's the thought that came into my mind when you said that our forgiveness is contingent upon God's.
P1 God's forgiveness is our model
P2 God only forgives the repentant (that's why he forgave us)
C We should only forgive the repentant
???
[bible] Luke 17:3-4[/bible]
God grants repentance, he doesn't reward it. God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
I will go along with the sentiment that we are to forgive only those who repent if you can show me the scripture. I already know what the popular teaching is. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to see the scripture that validates the easy way.
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
Is Jesus split? Either scripture is contradicting here or there are two different kinds of forgiveness. So where do you go now?
me said:It may depend on what one means by "forgive." If by "forgive" you mean that the person is entitled to the same privileges they had before the offense, the I don't think anyone would say that we should forgive the unrepentant. This would do away with church discipline altogether. Also, I may be able to "let go of my anger" toward a person who has wronged me, but if they don't repent I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore.
The one forgiveness (Mark), in which we release the penalty and responsibility to God, saves us from our own anger. This would hurt the fellowship of the body.
Meanwhile the other forgiveness (Luke) brings real reconciliation between members of the body. So this poll is really dependent on which forgiveness we are speaking of. I answered 'yes' based on Mark 11, those who answer 'no' are thinking of Luke 17.
This is why I love this board. Working together we always come away from scripture having gained so much more than we would have on our own.
Good night David.
Good night, David.
Are these passages really dealing with people who are not repentant? Or are they dealing with people who are repentant and the point being made is 'dont hold a grudge'?
Considering they come right after the Lords Prayer, I would say it doesn't matter.
WE as Christians are to forgive, even if the other person isn't repentant.
Isn't that loving our neighbor as you love ourself? And doing unto others as we would want them to do to us?
Is there sin against us, greater than their sin against God?
Are we not supposed to be examples of Christ's love of forgiveness?
Forgiving even when someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they haven't repented?
Do WE deserve to be forgiven by God for our sins against Him?
No, but yet He forgives, even if we don't acknowledge our sinfulness...the difference is, there is no reconciliation until we acknowledge our sinfullness.
No, but yet He forgives, even if we don't acknowledge our sinfulness...the difference is, there is no reconciliation until we acknowledge our sinfullness.
Besides, the argument that Jesus says, 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do' is invalid. Just because Jesus calls for the Father to forgive them doesn't mean it will actually happen. It is easy to see Jesus' desire for forgiveness, and I am sure He wants their repentance, but it is obvious that probably many of those people there did not repent and therefore were not forgiven. Some yes, did repent, were forgiven. But God obviously doesn't forgive everyone! If it were so, all would be saved. But that is not so, Christ did not die for all. God wills them to repent, they repent, they are forgiven. Jesus' prayer is that, a desire, a want, but it can't be mistaken for actually forgiveness. Forgiveness comes through the cross, we all know this.
Ok, that works too, I was just pointing out that many people use that case to attempt to prove that we should forgive even when there is no repentance.
Would you agree with the conclusion we reached last night, that forgiveness of those who do not repent consists in not holding bitterness in one's own heart against that person yet remaining publicly unreconciled?
I don't think it is strictly emotional, and I don't think that Scripture uses 'forgive' in more than one way (I could be wrong obviously).
Sorry, but isn't forgiveness pardoning someone of their sin? If we are to mimic God, how can we pardon someone who is unrepentant (not saying we are God)?