How to restore an addict?

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moral necessity

Puritan Board Junior
For those believers who grew up developing strong addictions or habits towards certain sins, (let's say gluttony or drunkenness or p0rnography or homosexuality), and spent multiple years nursing those habits to where they became actual addicts towards them, how do we minister correction and restoration to them? Is our ministry to them to be the same as our ministry to those who are not such addicts? And, do we put them under church discipline the same as we would anyone else? And, if our ministry is to be different, in what way is it to be so?

Thoughts?
 
I would say that we minister to them through the Gospel as we minister to everyone else.

Programs are fine for stopping the habit, but they can't change an addicts heart...only Christ can do that. As Christians we don't seek to change people on the outside, simply controlling their habits/addictions...we seek to have God change people from the heart and work out from there.
 
For those believers who grew up developing strong addictions or habits towards certain sins, (let's say gluttony or drunkenness or p0rnography or homosexuality), and spent multiple years nursing those habits to where they became actual addicts towards them, how do we minister correction and restoration to them? Is our ministry to them to be the same as our ministry to those who are not such addicts? And, do we put them under church discipline the same as we would anyone else? And, if our ministry is to be different, in what way is it to be so?

Thoughts?

Are you saying that they were believer's/ then became addicts?
Then spend "multiple years" nursing those habits?

1Cor 6:
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
This section of scripture indicates that this is not the condition of someone who is a believer. A believer might be tempted, or struggle with sin in many areas of life, but to say they spend many years being addicts to sin is not the Nt picture of a believer.
 
For those believers who grew up developing strong addictions or habits towards certain sins, (let's say gluttony or drunkenness or p0rnography or homosexuality), and spent multiple years nursing those habits to where they became actual addicts towards them, how do we minister correction and restoration to them? Is our ministry to them to be the same as our ministry to those who are not such addicts? And, do we put them under church discipline the same as we would anyone else? And, if our ministry is to be different, in what way is it to be so?

Thoughts?

Are you saying that they were believer's/ then became addicts?
Then spend "multiple years" nursing those habits?

1Cor 6:
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
This section of scripture indicates that this is not the condition of someone who is a believer. A believer might be tempted, or struggle with sin in many areas of life, but to say they spend many years being addicts to sin is not the Nt picture of a believer.

Let's just say that they were addicts before they became a believer. What is the criteria for placing such under church discipline? Are we to assume an immediate change in behavior along derived from an immediate ability to do so?
 
Let's just say that they were addicts before they became a believer. What is the criteria for placing such under church discipline? Are we to assume an immediate change in behavior along derived from an immediate ability to do so?

If a person is addicted to anything before they become a believer,they must know that they are bound by sin.
16have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
any person outside of Jesus is bound and under the control of sin.
In John 8 this was much of the topic of the teaching given.

A person bound in sin,should not be a member of the church. When God sets them free of their sin, and gives them a new heart then they are made members.
A person with a physical or chemical addiction should be given help to remove the chemicals from his body. But, removing the chemicals without changing the heart is fruitless
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

He must be drawn to repent and forsake the sin;
13He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
This is the inner work and power of the Spirit of God.The reigning power of sin will be broken . Then he must be instucted to mortify the deeds of the flesh, ie, those sins he was prone to.
Church discipline would not do this. If a person who is called a brother shows in his life he is bound yet in sin, he is to come under discipline with a view to restore him / when and if he repents.
 
You said, "If a person is addicted to anything before they become a believer,they must know that they are bound by sin.
16have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?

"any person outside of Jesus is bound and under the control of sin.
In John 8 this was much of the topic of the teaching given."

"A person bound in sin,should not be a member of the church. When God sets them free of their sin, and gives them a new heart then they are made members."


Are you saying that an alcoholic should not be a member of a church until they are set free from their sin? For, you go on to say, "He must be drawn to repent and forsake the sin;

Quote:
13He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

This is the inner work and power of the Spirit of God.The reigning power of sin will be broken . Then he must be instucted to mortify the deeds of the flesh, ie, those sins he was prone to.
Church discipline would not do this. If a person who is called a brother shows in his life he is bound yet in sin, he is to come under discipline with a view to restore him / when and if he repents."


I guess I'm confused. Should an alcoholic be a member of a church? Or, is this what you address by referring to "church discipline"?
 
Do them and yourself a favor and do not create a separate class of sin called addiction. Treat them like everyone else with the consequences that follow. The church will stay purer that way.
 
Do them and yourself a favor and do not create a separate class of sin called addiction. Treat them like everyone else with the consequences that follow. The church will stay purer that way.


I'm not really intending to create a separate class of sin called addiction, but I'm trying to discern whether or not it is advantageous to them to use a "cookie cutter" model of church discipline.
 
I believe it is helpful to them to be kicked out of the church to experience the wrath of God, to turn in their despair, and re-enter the church humbled and ready to be taught of God.
 
I believe it is helpful to them to be kicked out of the church to experience the wrath of God, to turn in their despair, and re-enter the church humbled and ready to be taught of God.

Wow...

Would you apply the same with regard to addicts in regards to their sins of ommission as well as commission?
 
I believe it is helpful to them to be kicked out of the church to experience the wrath of God, to turn in their despair, and re-enter the church humbled and ready to be taught of God.

Wow...

Would you apply the same with regard to addicts in regards to their sins of ommission as well as commission?

Actually, I have to ask why are addicts to be treated differently than a church member who has an affair? And what kind of sins of omission are you referring to? Giving the addict license to continue with their addiction, is enabling the addict to continue in their sinful behavior.:judge: Properly exercising church discipline would not differ from a rehab center kicking an alcoholic or drug addict out for using while in the program. In rehab, the addict IS held accountable by staff, their families and peers for their behavior. Why would the church consider doing anything less for its membership? :2cents:
 
Actually, I have to ask why are addicts to be treated differently than a church member who has an affair? And what kind of sins of omission are you referring to? Giving the addict license to continue with their addiction, is enabling the addict to continue in their sinful behavior.:judge: Properly exercising church discipline would not differ from a rehab center kicking an alcoholic or drug addict out for using while in the program. In rehab, the addict IS held accountable by staff, their families and peers for their behavior. Why would the church consider doing anything less for its membership? :2cents:

Thanks for your thoughts, Gail!

I'm not really saying that license should be given to addicts. I'm just throwing the question out to see if any think that our approach to them ought to have some difference to it. The goal is restoration, not removal, right?

For the guy who has an affair, are you meaning someone who happens to have an affair one evening, or someone who pursues this course of life. David comes to mind as one who had one for a year.

For omission, just think of anything that we ought to be doing that we don't do. Let's say "loving our enemies and praying for them" or "doing unto others what you would want done unto you" or "letting only words that give grace to those that hear proceed from your mouth" or "thinking on only what is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, excellent, worthy of praise" or "giving thanks in all circumstances" or "continuing steadfastly in prayer" or "letting your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt". Now, if anyone is in the habit of not doing these things, shouldn't he be under church discipline as much as someone who is doing what he should not be doing? If discipline is administered because of sinful behavior, then both committed sin and omitted sin ought to be dealt with, right? For, both are sin. I wonder how many believers are in churches who are addicted to not doing what they should be doing?

Blessings!
 
When it comes to a believer who is an active member of the church who falls into addiction, I think the church would be wrong not to address the issue with church discipline of some kind.

When a person who comes to the Lord, wants to join and acknowledges the addiction when they request church membership, the church leadership should seek out help for the individual before they consider letting the person join. In my opinion, it is never right to let the individual who claims to know the Lord to continue with destructive behavior.

I had a friend who came to the Lord as an alcoholic. The church allowed him to join without addressing the addiction. When my friend finally sought out help and was actually kicking the habit and finding victory, one of the pastors took him out for dinner and offered him a glass of wine. My friend fell back into the addiction and died a few months later.
 
When a person who comes to the Lord, wants to join and acknowledges the addiction when they request church membership, the church leadership should seek out help for the individual before they consider letting the person join. In my opinion, it is never right to let the individual who claims to know the Lord to continue with destructive behavior.

Thanks for your thoughts Leeanne!

For me, I would find it hard to refuse membership to someone who trusts in the finished work of Christ for their salvation. It would seem difficult for me to refuse membership and ministry to one that Christ welcomes. I agree with you that some sort of special ministry and attention for him is necessary. Most of what I have seen, however, involves a weekly reporting of behavior. If a failure occurred, then a second brother is involved. Reporting continues until another failure occurs, and then it is brought before the church. When the next failure occurs, he is removed from fellowship until the behavior is corrected. I wonder if this doesn't just set him up for failure, for, one who has been enslaved for 20 years is going to be hard pressed to reform under the threat of excommunication. Most can't even reform under the threat of jail or divorce. And, the ministry of the word and sacraments seems absolutely necessary for him. Depriving him of this would seem to add to his already crippled fleshly life a severe handicap to his newly welcomed spiritual life.

Blessings!
 
Actually, I have to ask why are addicts to be treated differently than a church member who has an affair? And what kind of sins of omission are you referring to? Giving the addict license to continue with their addiction, is enabling the addict to continue in their sinful behavior.:judge: Properly exercising church discipline would not differ from a rehab center kicking an alcoholic or drug addict out for using while in the program. In rehab, the addict IS held accountable by staff, their families and peers for their behavior. Why would the church consider doing anything less for its membership? :2cents:

Thanks for your thoughts, Gail!

I'm not really saying that license should be given to addicts. I'm just throwing the question out to see if any think that our approach to them ought to have some difference to it. The goal is restoration, not removal, right?

For the guy who has an affair, are you meaning someone who happens to have an affair one evening, or someone who pursues this course of life. David comes to mind as one who had one for a year.

For omission, just think of anything that we ought to be doing that we don't do. Let's say "loving our enemies and praying for them" or "doing unto others what you would want done unto you" or "letting only words that give grace to those that hear proceed from your mouth" or "thinking on only what is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, excellent, worthy of praise" or "giving thanks in all circumstances" or "continuing steadfastly in prayer" or "letting your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt". Now, if anyone is in the habit of not doing these things, shouldn't he be under church discipline as much as someone who is doing what he should not be doing? If discipline is administered because of sinful behavior, then both committed sin and omitted sin ought to be dealt with, right? For, both are sin. I wonder how many believers are in churches who are addicted to not doing what they should be doing?

Blessings!

Do non addicts also need discipline for sins of omission? And are we truly restoring the addict by NOT holding him/her to the same standards as the rest of the church? And I do know addicts relapse over and over: it would be in my opinion better to not differentiate between addicts and other church members caught in visible and obvious sin that will be detrimental to the harmony of the church. :2cents:

Disclaimer: I am NOT eligible for Session (nor do I WANT the honor as a woman...) but how is session able to measure sins of omission? That would be difficult to gauge.
 
I don't think Paul mentioned the term "stronghold" in his epistles for the fun of it. A careful balance must be developed in dealing with a person that has very strong addictions. A church cannot in no wise encourage their addiction, neither should the church be unnecessarily and unjustly harsh to as to send a brother further into the depths of despair. I think membership should always be opened to a person that is "battling" addictions. Leadership should ensure that the brother is taking part of an AA program and getting the counseling necessary to get his life back on track. Leaders should regularly offer up prayers for the brother and encourage him. A simple word of encouragement goes a long way into restoring a person and enabling them to overcome strongholds.
 
I don't think Paul mentioned the term "stronghold" in his epistles for the fun of it. A careful balance must be developed in dealing with a person that has very strong addictions. A church cannot in no wise encourage their addiction, neither should the church be unnecessarily and unjustly harsh to as to send a brother further into the depths of despair. I think membership should always be opened to a person that is "battling" addictions. Leadership should ensure that the brother is taking part of an AA program and getting the counseling necessary to get his life back on track. Leaders should regularly offer up prayers for the brother and encourage him. A simple word of encouragement goes a long way into restoring a person and enabling them to overcome strongholds.

I understand what you are saying and partly agree. Keep in mind that any recovery group has strict rules about confidentiality (AA has open and closed meetings) I do think that holding an addict accountable is a good thing and realizing the addict will most likely relapse more than once is important. Then again, I do not think church discipline is to be used to intimidate or create fear but it does need to be applied fairly. My husband defined an excommunication as something that should be rare and the church should be sorrowful unto tears. I agree with him. :2cents:
 
In addition to what I said in the earlier post, I think that it is important to keep in mind that the physical bodies of those who have become truly addicted to alcohol or drugs have undergone chemical changes, and it has been proven that this happens at the cellular level. This is true with someone who has been addicted for a very long time (over 7 years). Often with these folks, a clean break with the alcohol or drugs can mean death. They have to be carefully weaned off of it under the care of a physician. It is not to excuse the behavior, but these kinds of things need to be kept in mind when dealing with addicts.

As I mentioned before, when a believer falls into this behavior, one would hope that those in the church fellowship would notice it before it got to the level of which I am speaking and deal with it. But I do believe the church has a slightly different responsibility to support a brother or sister who has come to the Lord out of long term addiction. So often we see the problem, make a quick judgment and in some cases, declare the person "lost" because they are struggling with addiction rather than finding out what is really going on with them.
 
Do non addicts also need discipline for sins of omission? And are we truly restoring the addict by NOT holding him/her to the same standards as the rest of the church? And I do know addicts relapse over and over: it would be in my opinion better to not differentiate between addicts and other church members caught in visible and obvious sin that will be detrimental to the harmony of the church. :2cents:

Disclaimer: I am NOT eligible for Session (nor do I WANT the honor as a woman...) but how is session able to measure sins of omission? That would be difficult to gauge.

Thanks again, Gail!

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your first question. I assume all believers need correction when they sin. But, I want to be clear that I think every believer should be held to the same standard. What I'm wondering about is the same "cookie cutter" type of judgment and method of restoration. I guess Jude might be adressing this, when he says, "Have mercy on some who doubt, save others by snatching them out of the fire, to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh." I don't think his list is necessarily exhaustive for how to minister to brothers. But, it seems to be showing that it is to be different for different people and different situations.

I guess sins of omission would be measurable as we go about confessing our sins to one another. For then, these sins of omission would be regularly discovered. But, then again, since mutual confession is often a sin of omission in and of itself in many churches, I would say the Session should start with that one as being the first sin to deal with. Every believer should be confessing their sins to somebody on a regular basis. And, every believer should be receiving a confession of that same someone's sins on a regular basis. So, I guess those on Session should start with examining their own selves first and those who are closest to them as brothers, to see if this command is regularly being obeyed or not. From there, it would branch out. As it is regularly attended to by all, sins of omission will be discovered daily.
 
I was a HEAVY drinker when I became a Christian, the physical addiction did not "just go away", I was under a wise Pastor at the time and he had me call him anytime day or night, I quietly did outpatient therapy for my addiction, there were bumps, and slips, but under Godly love and prayer I finally put away the booze. I don't know if this helps, but it is the experience of this former addict. (In regard to a few things I saw posted) it can be VERY dangerous to tell a heavy drinker to just STOP without medical care. There can be convulsions and in some cases death. We must use wisdom when dealing with such an issue. :2cents:
 
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In addition to what I said in the earlier post, I think that it is important to keep in mind that the physical bodies of those who have become truly addicted to alcohol or drugs have undergone chemical changes, and it has been proven that this happens at the cellular level. This is true with someone who has been addicted for a very long time (over 7 years). Often with these folks, a clean break with the alcohol or drugs can mean death. They have to be carefully weaned off of it under the care of a physician. It is not to excuse the behavior, but these kinds of things need to be kept in mind when dealing with addicts.

As I mentioned before, when a believer falls into this behavior, one would hope that those in the church fellowship would notice it before it got to the level of which I am speaking and deal with it. But I do believe the church has a slightly different responsibility to support a brother or sister who has come to the Lord out of long term addiction. So often we see the problem, make a quick judgment and in some cases, declare the person "lost" because they are struggling with addiction rather than finding out what is really going on with them.

Blessings to you! Your last statement is precious, and longed for by several that I know.
 
I will share this story of a sister in the Lord, who when I first met her was addicted to methadone. While under the influence of methadone, she stole $300 from me to buy some more methadone. My first reaction was to have her convicted and tossed into jail. I didn't have her arrested, because she claimed to be a believer (I am sure God was in all of this.). Instead, I gave her a reasonable time frame to return the money, and I told her that she would have to get off the methadone. She said she didn't know how she was going to get the money. I told her that she needed to confess her sin, tell God about it and ask Him to provide. She did, in my presence.

Not 12 hours before the stated deadline, she received a check in the mail that completely covered the amount she owed me. She brought the money to me, and then I told her to go see her doctor about getting off the methadone. She went on a doctor prescribed regime. Today, she is a vibrant believer. Not only is she off the methadone, she is off all of her addictive prescription drugs, and she is holding down a regular job. That is what God can do for an addict, but it is sometimes a slow process.
 
In addition to what I said in the earlier post, I think that it is important to keep in mind that the physical bodies of those who have become truly addicted to alcohol or drugs have undergone chemical changes, and it has been proven that this happens at the cellular level. This is true with someone who has been addicted for a very long time (over 7 years). Often with these folks, a clean break with the alcohol or drugs can mean death. They have to be carefully weaned off of it under the care of a physician. It is not to excuse the behavior, but these kinds of things need to be kept in mind when dealing with addicts.

As I mentioned before, when a believer falls into this behavior, one would hope that those in the church fellowship would notice it before it got to the level of which I am speaking and deal with it. But I do believe the church has a slightly different responsibility to support a brother or sister who has come to the Lord out of long term addiction. So often we see the problem, make a quick judgment and in some cases, declare the person "lost" because they are struggling with addiction rather than finding out what is really going on with them.

Blessings to you! Your last statement is precious, and longed for by several that I know.
I am glad you seek understanding in this some drugs:Barbituates, Sedatives, and as in my case heavy alcohol users must be handled VERY carefully. Someone addicted to these classes, you must be willing to commit time with, make sure medical care is in place, and love and pray for and with them. It takes commitment.:2cents:
 
I was a HEAVY drinker when I became a Christian, the physical addiction did not "just go away", I was under a wise Pastor at the time and he had me call him anytime day or night, I quietly did outpatient therapy for my addiction, there were bumps, and slips, but under Godly love and prayer I finally put away the booze. I don't know if this helps, but it is the experience of this former addict. (In regard to a few things I saw posted) it can be VERY dangerous to tell a heavy drinker to just STOP without medical care. There can be convulsions and in some cases death. We must use wisdom when dealing with such an issue. :2cents:

Blessings to you as well! I often think it takes a former alcoholic to minister to an alcoholic. And, often this is perhaps why God allows those in his church to go through certain sins in their life for certain seasons of time, pre or post conversion. In doing so, he prepares ministers for the many others. Imagine what ministry David and Samson could do for those trying to come out of a life of p0rnography. That's why Christ himself took on the flesh. "In that he was tempted in every way as we are, he is able to come to the aid of those who are so tempted." Sadly, I know several who were ministered to by elders who had no experience in these areas of sin. They just used Romans 6 like a club, and treated them like their sinful addictions were powerless over them. One even lost his marriage and 3 children over it, as his wife was persuaded by them that her husband refused to obey. Others just quit Christianity, for they found no solution to their struggles.
 
I was a HEAVY drinker when I became a Christian, the physical addiction did not "just go away", I was under a wise Pastor at the time and he had me call him anytime day or night, I quietly did outpatient therapy for my addiction, there were bumps, and slips, but under Godly love and prayer I finally put away the booze. I don't know if this helps, but it is the experience of this former addict. (In regard to a few things I saw posted) it can be VERY dangerous to tell a heavy drinker to just STOP without medical care. There can be convulsions and in some cases death. We must use wisdom when dealing with such an issue. :2cents:

Blessings to you as well! I often think it takes a former alcoholic to minister to an alcoholic. And, often this is perhaps why God allows those in his church to go through certain sins in their life for certain seasons of time, pre or post conversion. In doing so, he prepares ministers for the many others. Imagine what ministry David and Samson could do for those trying to come out of a life of p0rnography. That's why Christ himself took on the flesh. "In that he was tempted in every way as we are, he is able to come to the aid of those who are so tempted." Sadly, I know several who were ministered to by elders who had no experience in these areas of sin. They just used Romans 6 like a club, and treated them like their sinful addictions were powerless over them. One even lost his marriage and 3 children over it, as his wife was persuaded by them that her husband refused to obey. Others just quit Christianity, for they found no solution to their struggles.

Now you're comments have blessed me. I, too, believe that God takes us through things so we can minister to others.
 
I am glad you seek understanding in this some drugs:Barbituates, Sedatives, and as in my case heavy alcohol users must be handled VERY carefully. Someone addicted to these classes, you must be willing to commit time with, make sure medical care is in place, and love and pray for and with them. It takes commitment.:2cents:

I'm with you 100%! Ministry doesn't fit into a formula. I bet this is applicable for many brothers out there as well. Many are too nervous to even start down the path of recovery through their church, because they're timid with what will happen to them. They might be removed from fellowship in a matter of 3 meetings. And so, they lay under the weight of their sins and pursue the world's resources for help, rather than the ministry of Christ.
 
Also, if I remember correctly, the word for fellowship, "koinonea" I think, implies the idea of "coming alongside". If personal correction and rebuke isn't given without the intent of koinonea, I wonder if it should even be administered.
 
Also, if I remember correctly, the word for fellowship, "koinonea" I think, implies the idea of "coming alongside". If personal correction and rebuke isn't given without the intent of koinonea, I wonder if it should even be administered.

Good point. I think that correction administered in the wrong way can do more damage than the sin committed.
 
I was a HEAVY drinker when I became a Christian, the physical addiction did not "just go away", I was under a wise Pastor at the time and he had me call him anytime day or night, I quietly did outpatient therapy for my addiction, there were bumps, and slips, but under Godly love and prayer I finally put away the booze. I don't know if this helps, but it is the experience of this former addict. (In regard to a few things I saw posted) it can be VERY dangerous to tell a heavy drinker to just STOP without medical care. There can be convulsions and in some cases death. We must use wisdom when dealing with such an issue. :2cents:

Let me make this perfectly clear: I was not talking about overall treatment of addicts. I was addressing the role of the church in the addicts' recovery. It is the pastor's duty (and the duty of leadership) to shepherd the church BUT know their limits and know when to refer the person to medical or mental health professionals when the issue requires further treatment. It is NOT the church's proper role to address any medical consequences or anything directly related to the substance abuse and the physical impacts.

It IS however appropriate for the church to pray for and love a brother or sister and handle NON medical issues with proper application of church discipline (which will mean handling cases with prayer AND understanding of the person and where they are at mentally and physically). If an addict shows up to a church function physically or mentally impaired due to their addiction, the session has the right and indeed must address this behavior. They do have the duty to recommend treatment and sanction the church member for their behavior at this function. The session would hopefully take the person's addiction into account as a factor when deciding how to handle the situation. It is like having an employee who comes to work high or drunk. For the sake of everyone else in the facility/church, that person needs to be dealt with. :worms:
 
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