Women directing Worship Team

[Tim]

As a "master" of singing and music - I respectfully disagree with your premise. Singing (and music in general) is a skill that should be developed in service to God. Those that have been given those abilities have a responsibility to lead and teach, so that the musical worship of God should be skillfully accomplished.

I understand what you are saying, brother, and I think your assessment of the Levites' function is correct, but shouldn't this now fall under the responsibilities of the pastor/elder? The Levitical priesthood has passed away.

But, really, what I am saying is that this does not require the complexity of an orchestra or extended musical score. It's simple to open one's mouth and sing a psalm. We can all sing our national anthem, and how many psalms (or hymns if you sing them) are much more musically complex? Orchestra conductors are indeed gifted but I begin to have a problem with this sort of idea:

P1. music is a part of worship
P2. Mr. Classically trained is a gifted musician
C. he must employ all of his abilities in church

The consequence is that the requirement for song is modified above that which is presented in scripture - things become more difficult and people soon 'need' semi-professional musicians to lead.

In my home church, someone begins singing the first note at a suitable pitch and then we all join in. It's as simple as that! There is no need that anyone has any sort of special training. And if you practice the tunes you will know them just as well as your national anthem.

Here is how I see it:

'old' ceremonial worship = required instruments = required Levites appropriately skilled

'new' church worship = just sing = requires only the leadership of pastors/elders; therefore no special leader required

 

[py3ak]

What is "high quality worship"?

Good question, hard to define. Essentially, it is worship that leads to God, not toward the persons "leading" it. No person stands out, but God stands out.

But then a worship team/skilled musicians, etc., are essentially irrelevant to high quality worship are they not?

Look, I love opera, not your trashy second-rate Makropolous case sort of junk, but the real thing: Lucia, Rigoletto, etc. And it used to be one of my favorite daydreams that Ramón Vargas or Cecilia Bartoli would get saved (of course, I'd be thrilled for that to happen now) and come to our church and sing a special.... But then I began to think a little more about God and a little less about the experience. Of course Ramón Vargas should use his lovely voice to the glory of God, and may God illumine him and bring him to do just that. But it is a mistake to think that in order to do so he has to be performing in churches; and it would be absurd to think that his presence and performance would somehow make worship more spiritual. No doubt if he came he could drown out all the rest of the members of the congregation, and the temptation to every person of sensibility would be to clam up and not intrude our own crow's croaking; but how much better would it be if we all together, with one mind and one mouth glorified God?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Some years ago I went through and counted how many times that "stuff" is mentioned in Scripture in the context of worship, and several times the language is actually one of ordering, commanding, the use of "stuff". I think it's about 70 times.

And besides, it's not just the OT; prophetic Scripture tells us that "stuff" is used in Heaven!

No offense, and I do see where you're coming from; there are certainly times when church practices take the eye off the target.

Of course one could make the argument that the "commands" in Scripture for the use of instruments in the OT were done so in the context of the Temple worship which has been abrogated in the New Testament Church and that if the oft quoted Psalm 150 is a requirement for our worship today then we better get out the cymbals and trumpets. Or we are told of lots of other things done in the context of heavenly worship that we do not do now, like Spurgeon says here.

But that would be an entirely different thread.

 

[TimV]

But that would be an entirely different thread.

Point taken, but still the sneer quotes around "stuff" describe, at the very least, God ordered and God pleasing forms of worhip in the past and future. Given that, musical instruments couldn't be too grave of a sin, surely ;-)

 

[panta dokimazete]

I understand what you are saying, brother, and I think your assessment of the Levites' function is correct, but shouldn't this now fall under the responsibilities of the pastor/elder? The Levitical priesthood has passed away.

Has the requirement of singing and playing skillfully passed away? Where was that abrogated?

As far as the responsibility is concerned, if the elder/pastor is skilled, yes - if not he should seek out a skilled, godly musician.

But, really, what I am saying is that this does not require the complexity of an orchestra or extended musical score.

As far as complexity goes - it is a matter of scale and intent. You are painting with far too broad a stroke.

We can all sing our national anthem, and how many psalms (or hymns if you sing them) are much more musically complex?

You do understand that our national anthem is one of the world's most difficult to sing? particularly sing well?

You are disregarding all of the skilled musicians through the ages that have developed the foundational components of music that you take for granted. The very tunes you sing are based on musical scales that have been developed and refined over time.

Orchestra conductors are indeed gifted but I begin to have a problem with this sort of idea:

P1. music is a part of worship
P2. Mr. Classically trained is a gifted musician
C. he must employ all of his abilities in church

The consequence is that the requirement for song is modified above that which is presented in scripture - things become more difficult and people soon 'need' semi-professional musicians to lead.

p1 all elements of worship should be skillfully accomplished
p2 music\singing is an element of worship

c music\singing in worship should be skillfully accomplished

If you follow this logic and apply it to the appropriate worship environment (home, small church, large church) then the appropriate level of skill available and applicable from the body can be matched to the level of worship intention.

In my home church, someone begins singing the first note at a suitable pitch and then we all join in. It's as simple as that! There is no need that anyone has any sort of special training. And if you practice the tunes you will know them just as well as your national anthem.

See above concerning the national anthem, the development of foundational musical architecture and the directive to skillfully worship in music.

Net effect - you are oversimplifying.

Here is how I see it:

'old' ceremonial worship = required instruments = required Levites appropriately skilled

'new' church worship = just sing = requires only the leadership of pastors/elders; therefore no special leader required

Do you believe the Psalms to be prescriptive for worship? I do.

Where has the requirement to sing and play instruments skillfully been abrogated? Please give direct Scriptural support.

Who will compose the music for the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs?

Shall all song be sung with tunes made up on the spot or should they be skillfully wrought (and by skillfull, I do not mean complex) to honor God and thus enable worship in song to be done "decently and in order"?

Tim, I understand your conviction and rationale, I just think it is incomplete.

For many, the desire to "be simple" has resulted in throwing the baby out with the bath water. Much the same way theology and doctrine has been in contemporary culture, the music of the church has been afflicted by oversimplification and amateurism.

The point is, we seek purity in preaching and teaching and acknowledge that purity is accomplished through learning and skillful exegesis. Why have we decided that purity in worship music requires any less diligence?

All elements of worship should be skillfully wrought to glorify God.

Taking the best of our God-given talents and applying them to His worship demands that they be done skillfully and appropriately.

Godly and skillfull musicians enable this.

Blessings...

 

[TimV]

We can all sing our national anthem, and how many psalms (or hymns if you sing them) are much more musically complex?

I can sing Die Stem, but I have to hum along for that new thing...

 

[panta dokimazete]

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Some years ago I went through and counted how many times that "stuff" is mentioned in Scripture in the context of worship, and several times the language is actually one of ordering, commanding, the use of "stuff". I think it's about 70 times.

And besides, it's not just the OT; prophetic Scripture tells us that "stuff" is used in Heaven!

No offense, and I do see where you're coming from; there are certainly times when church practices take the eye off the target.

Of course one could make the argument that the "commands" in Scripture for the use of instruments in the OT were done so in the context of the Temple worship which has been abrogated in the New Testament Church and that if the oft quoted Psalm 150 is a requirement for our worship today then we better get out the cymbals and trumpets. Or we are told of lots of other things done in the context of heavenly worship that we do not do now, like Spurgeon says here.

But that would be an entirely different thread.

So - we sing the Psalms used in Temple worship, but we reject\ignore their prescriptive value for NT worship? I understand the abrogation of sacrifices, but not rejection of the general worship directives.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Do you believe the Psalms to be prescriptive for worship? I do.

Where has the requirement to sing and play instruments skillfully been abrogated? Please give direct Scriptural support.

The requirement to play instruments in worship has been abrogated by the abolishment of temple worship (along with the sacrifice of bulls).

I cannot reproduce it here because of its length but I would suggest looking at John Girardeau's Instruments in the Public Worship of the Church, specifically Chapter III "Arguments from the New Testament" pg. 61-94. As well as Chapter II "Arguments from the Old Testament".

It can be found free online here and here.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Again - I understand the abrogation of animal sacrifice, since Christ replaced it, but where is the direct abrogation of the musical components? What did Christ do to replace that?

That is - where does the NT specifically abrogate the use of music, voice or instruments as elements of worship?

I'll answer for you - it does not. In fact we are commanded to use the Psalms to guide us in the way we are to worship.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

We are getting a lot .

However the NT tells us that the OT Temple Worship has been abrogated, all of it. Instruments were more than a "circumstance" and therefore were abrogated along with the animal sacrifice.

Again read Girardeau's chapters when you get a chance.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I have read the rationales - the elements remain and music\singing is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.

I'll start another thread to discuss further.

 

[Roldan]

I have read the rationales - the elements remain and musicsinging is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.

I'll start another thread to discuss further.

Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I have read the rationales - the elements remain and musicsinging is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.

I'll start another thread to discuss further.

Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please

Feel free to start your own. I have Girardeau right in front of me.

 

[Roldan]

I have read the rationales - the elements remain and musicsinging is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.

I'll start another thread to discuss further.

Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please

Feel free to start your own. I have Girardeau right in front of me.

Yeah me too but I'll let Panta start it just in case, I don't want to hijack any of his thoughts

 

[panta dokimazete]

Working it...

 

[timmopussycat]

Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.

Why can't the elders pick out the music, and make the arrangements? She could then be responsible to the elders for playing the music and helping to organize the other musicians. Or you could just get rid of the whole music team.

After 30 years of church music experience, the last 18 working with a female worship leader, I can say that if the practice is to work, it must be build on a deep understanding between preaching elders and worship leader based on a common theology and shared assumptions of what is intended to be conveyed by the hymns and music chosen.

I would also like to note that it is not a biblical requiremet for elders that they be musically gifted. While some are, others are not. An ill chosen tune can nullify any effective contemplation of the words sung. One of the greatest preachers I know insisted on a very poor tune for a very good hymn. Thankfully he was open to advice where other hymns were concerned.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Working it...

 

[timmopussycat]

a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.

I am not convinced music is that important to God in worship, especially if his early church is an example. I am shamelessly telling you all what I just spent the last 45 minutes doing. I did not sing the hymns in Trinity, I read them and more easily sucked the marrow from them than with song. I often speak a hymn at church to keep from getting lost in the music of it and without me heart being in it. I have sung in choirs often and have a voice so it's not my lack of ability (still poor as compared to greats)

The early church was more bare-bones in ornamentation than we are today, and chanting hymns was normal. Here is some material I could find which summarizes some good information to consider in regards to how musical our early fathers were in worship.

The singing of the early Christians was simple and art less. Augustine describes the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius as "more like speaking than singing." Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp were associated so intimately with the sensuous heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless perform dances of the degenerate theatre and circus, that it is easy to understand the prejudice against their use in the Christian worship.

"A Christian maiden," says Jerome, "ought not even to know what a lyre or a flute is, or what it is used for." Clement of Alexandria writes: "Only one instrument do we use, viz., the word of peace wherewith we honor God, no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute."

Chrysostom expresses himself in like vein: "David formerly sang in psalms, also we sing today with him; he had a lyre with lifeless strings, the Church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety."

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Any thoughts?

Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement.

That said, although instruments can be, and often are a distraction they need not necessarily be one. A wise use of them to ACCOMPANY worship is not only biblically commanded but can help quicken our spirits.

 

[Pergamum]

I have read the rationales - the elements remain and musicsinging is a fundamental element - the rituals are certainly abrogated but the circumstances are just that - circumstance and fall within liberty of conscience.

I'll start another thread to discuss further.

Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please

Feel free to start your own. I have Girardeau right in front of me.

I got my John Frame right in front of me!

 

[ChristopherPaul]

Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please

Feel free to start your own. I have Girardeau right in front of me.

I got my John Frame right in front of me!

Apples and Oranges. You would be talking past each other in interpreting the RPW for Frame takes exception to the RPW.

 

[Pergamum]

Frame claims he believes in it.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.

I am not convinced music is that important to God in worship, especially if his early church is an example. I am shamelessly telling you all what I just spent the last 45 minutes doing. I did not sing the hymns in Trinity, I read them and more easily sucked the marrow from them than with song. I often speak a hymn at church to keep from getting lost in the music of it and without me heart being in it. I have sung in choirs often and have a voice so it's not my lack of ability (still poor as compared to greats)

The early church was more bare-bones in ornamentation than we are today, and chanting hymns was normal. Here is some material I could find which summarizes some good information to consider in regards to how musical our early fathers were in worship.

The singing of the early Christians was simple and art less. Augustine describes the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius as "more like speaking than singing." Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp were associated so intimately with the sensuous heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless perform dances of the degenerate theatre and circus, that it is easy to understand the prejudice against their use in the Christian worship.

"A Christian maiden," says Jerome, "ought not even to know what a lyre or a flute is, or what it is used for." Clement of Alexandria writes: "Only one instrument do we use, viz., the word of peace wherewith we honor God, no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute."

Chrysostom expresses himself in like vein: "David formerly sang in psalms, also we sing today with him; he had a lyre with lifeless strings, the Church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety."

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Any thoughts?

Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement.

That said, although instruments can be, and often are a distraction they need not necessarily be one. A wise use of them to ACCOMPANY worship is not only biblically commanded but can help quicken our spirits.

In an instrument discussion Psalm 150, In my humble opinion, is a non-sequitur. Why you ask since it is nothing but instruments?

1) The Psalm, given its context, has nothing to do with NT worship and everything to do with Temple Worship.

2) People who claim that this Psalm is proscriptive for NT worship do not use the instruments supposedly "commanded" in their own worship.

3) If Psalm 150 is commanded, why do you not dance or chant as these are commanded as well?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Frame claims he believes in it.

Jim Wallis claims to be an evangelical as well. I love Frame and have a huge amount of respect for him but his "revised" RPW is not the Regulative Principle as much as I can tell.

 

[Roldan]

Please hurry lol cuz I have some observations as well. I read the entire chapter and.......well....start that thread please

Feel free to start your own. I have Girardeau right in front of me.

I got my John Frame right in front of me!

LOL

 

[panta dokimazete]

Thread's up!

 

[Stomata leontôn]

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.

This is the old left brain versus right brain analogy, analytic versus analogical thinking. Preaching is analytical, music analogical; preaching particular, music holistic. This means that preaching gives out more information and details, but music puts the ideas together in ways that words cannot.

Music is movement and it is spatial. It moves the listener in time toward a goal and how it does it is its thesis. This is very difficult to explain, but it can be shown; music is a parable. Music is something you walk somebody through. Music can express depth, or superficiality, or loftiness in ways that words cannot. Words bring ideas down to people; music brings people up to the ideas. And if done well, it uplifts the heart to God.

The reason so many pastors get music wrong is that their dominant thinking style is verbal. But most people are visual, meaning that they respond to the spatial movement of music more readily than to the statically localized nature of words. Stuffing words of good doctrine into a song makes bad music and it is really just a clumsy form of preaching anyway.

Of course we all understand this at least intuitively, which is why churches have musicians. To get it right, the musician is accountable to the direction of the pastor, and the pastor works in tandem with the musician when the music is planned. The pastor decides the message and the musician delivers it with his expertise.

The left brain and the right work together, and more types of people are reached. Music not only gives a rest within the many words together, but it gives a framework for all the prayers, scripture, and sermon to hang together. A good pastor and musician, using music can even plan the whole service like a composition.

 

[timmopussycat]

Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement.

That said, although instruments can be, and often are a distraction they need not necessarily be one. A wise use of them to ACCOMPANY worship is not only biblically commanded but can help quicken our spirits.

In an instrument discussion Psalm 150, In my humble opinion, is a non-sequitur. Why you ask since it is nothing but instruments?

1) The Psalm, given its context, has nothing to do with NT worship and everything to do with Temple Worship.

2) People who claim that this Psalm is proscriptive for NT worship do not use the instruments supposedly "commanded" in their own worship.

3) If Psalm 150 is commanded, why do you not dance or chant as these are commanded as well?

Temple worship is not mentioned in the psalm; praising God for his mightly acts and excellent greatness are. Only if praising God for his mightly acts and excellent greatness are abolished in the NT can we say this psalm has nothing to do with NT worship.

Some of us do use those instruments: we have a harp (the modern lyre) and trumpets on our worship team.

And we have been known to use liturgical dance on occasion.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Third and fourth century church fathers are not Scripture and Scripture is clear. The Lord is to be worshipped with instruments; Ps. 150 being but one example. The practice is nowhere explicitly prohibited in the NT, nor is its abolition a necessary consequence of any NT statement.

That said, although instruments can be, and often are a distraction they need not necessarily be one. A wise use of them to ACCOMPANY worship is not only biblically commanded but can help quicken our spirits.

In an instrument discussion Psalm 150, In my humble opinion, is a non-sequitur. Why you ask since it is nothing but instruments?

1) The Psalm, given its context, has nothing to do with NT worship and everything to do with Temple Worship.

2) People who claim that this Psalm is proscriptive for NT worship do not use the instruments supposedly "commanded" in their own worship.

3) If Psalm 150 is commanded, why do you not dance or chant as these are commanded as well?

Temple worship is not mentioned in the psalm; praising God for his mightly acts and excellent greatness are. Only if praising God for his mightly acts and excellent greatness are abolished in the NT can we say this psalm has nothing to do with NT worship.

Some of us do use those instruments: we have a harp (the modern lyre) and trumpets on our worship team.

And we have been known to use liturgical dance on occasion.

If they are commanded to be done in worship should you not, to be consistent, use them all the time?

By the way what/where might be the "Praise God in His sanctuary" referred to in Psalm 150?

 

[Augusta]

God is looking for worshipers who will worship in spirit and in truth. Man looks at the outside but God looks at the inside. All of this outward stuff is not what God is looking for in worship. Our voices, which he has created, lifted up in a sacrifice of praise to him. Just as Moses and Joshua had to remove there shoes (man's invention)to touch holy ground, so we need to remove all else to sing praise to God before his throne. Our voices are the only instrument we need.

Jeremiah 33:10-12

10"Thus says the LORD: In this place of which you say, 'It is a waste without man or beast,' in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are desolate, without man or inhabitant or beast, there shall be heard again
11 the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voices of those who sing, as they bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD:

"'Give thanks to the LORD of hosts,
for the LORD is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever!'

For I will restore the fortunes of the land as at first, says the LORD.

 

[Roldan]

No disrespect to anyone but shouldn't we be posting these that concern instruments on the otha thread?