Somehow the image of a woman covering her ears in pain for the loudness of the backup band doesn't come to mind in discussing circumstantial matters or preferential differences that may arise between acapella psalmodists. 
Walked Out of Church Today
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AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
True, a capella Psalm singing also can and may involve preferences, however there's a certain 'political'element attended with praise bands/multiple instruments/dancing and that sort of thing that doesn't exist with more conservative worship styles, either a capella Psalm singing or hymnody to piano/organ accompaniment.
That's true
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
That should be our only concern.
Mindaboo
Puritan Board Graduate
Maybe the other teens in the church want this kind of music, but I can tell you I know of two teens who don't. My two teens don't like it or think it is appropriate. We had a discussion on the way home and my son was upset. He said he felt like he was at a concert rather than a worship service. He actually got up while this was going on and asked me what was happening. He wanted to know why the music was going in this direction.
The session has approached the teens in our church and asked them to list what they thought made a good church, (they were instructed to ask their parents too), and what they would like to see change. Music was one, they also wanted a swimming pool, and more "fun" activities. So, with that who would take them seriously? There were one or two kids who answered seriously, but for the most part it was a joke.
I listen to Third Day, but it wouldn't be appropriate in a worship service. If these songs had been part of a get together on a different night or at a cook out there would be no objections at all. My elderly friends feel the same way.
I am deeply saddened by today. I have a lot of respect for my pastor and even sat in on a SS class where he taught us about proper liturgy. At that point my impression was that he was opposed to the contemporary service. At that time we only sang from the hymnal.
Thank you for all of your advice. Leaving a church is a painful experience that we have been a part of before. While we aren't attached to the people this go round it sure isn't something I am looking forward to doing again. We take our vows seriously, just stomping out doesn't seem right. I don't see us just leaving without trying to first work it out with our session.
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
That's really neat to hear.
Knoxienne
Puritan Board Graduate
Mindy, your patience and long-suffering really are admirable, but if children in the congregation are being consulted about what they want in a church, that is a huge danger signal as to where the leadership's priorities are. Not even adults should be asked what they want in a church. It's what the Bible teaches is a good church that matters. That issue is a bigger deal even than contemporary music in the church in and of itself. If it were just you and Brad I'd say maybe you could afford to stay for a bit. But in my opinion, your children need to be in a congregation where the leadership thinks biblically about them and their role as covenant children in the Church. I hope what I said has not offended you and Brad. Please forgive me if I'm stepping on toes. I don't mean to.
Praise the Lord for your wise children. Your post was so edifying!
Mindaboo
Puritan Board Graduate
I am not offended in any way. Thank you for the reminder about my children. I have two more younger than they are and we do need to seriously consider how this church will care for them as well. The last time we left a church it broke Taylor's heart. Our life revolved around our church and they love our church now. I know if we were to leave they would adjust, but it wouldn't be easy.
The elderly couple that was offended is dear to us. They have been the "grandparents" my children need, sincere friends to Brad and myself and a wonderful example of Christ love to us. It broke our hearts to see Jack looking at Helena with tears in his eyes.
I spent some time reading about the OPC church this afternoon and think we will probably visit soon. It would actually be about the same distance and we have friends who attend there already. I just want to proceed with caution and honor the Lord with whatever we do. I don't want to act on emotion. I want to do what the Lord wants me to do.
TheocraticMonarchist
Puritan Board Junior
Could it be argued that brining the pop-culture into the church breeds irreverence?
This is terrible news. It sounds like many of the Assemblies of God churches that I have encountered. They have bought into the cultural relevancy argument, which in my experience only promotes sacrilege. I don’t think Paul would endorse the “dog and pony show” that so many churches put on today.
Classical Presbyterian
Puritan Board Junior
I agree with the consensus--this was poor leadership and harmful mismanagement of the congregation. As a pastor I would concur that the pastor/s and elders damaged their standing and authority by the changing of worship without seeking to inform the congregation of their decisions.
You were entirely justified in walking out. It sounds more like an exhibition of hipness than the worship of a sovereign God.
You were entirely justified in walking out. It sounds more like an exhibition of hipness than the worship of a sovereign God.
Do what others have advised with regard to the Elders and Leadership of the Church but if your conscience is bound by Worship that is in violation of the RPW and they seem unsympathetic to your plight you may want to consider an alternative such as the OPC. After spending 10 years in the PCA I understand your plight brother and pray God will give you wisdom as to what course you and your family should take in this very difficult situation.
Jim-Bob
Puritan Board Freshman
Gotta Follow Your Conscience
I'll add an amen for the advice from the PB-ers who recommend going to the Session to present your concern. The Session is accountable for the worship service. If they can't give scriptural reasons for the changes....the choices are to flee (attend elsewhere), fight (with formal appeals) or follow (accept the changes). Pray for wisdom, courage, and do everything in love.
For the record, I am not for Exclusive Psalmody, think electric guitars can be played worshipfully, and can accept spontaneous dance on extraordinary occasions ( as did King David)...but the circumstances you describe look like an attempt to force a form of worship on other's consciences. I don't blame you for walking out.
I'll add an amen for the advice from the PB-ers who recommend going to the Session to present your concern. The Session is accountable for the worship service. If they can't give scriptural reasons for the changes....the choices are to flee (attend elsewhere), fight (with formal appeals) or follow (accept the changes). Pray for wisdom, courage, and do everything in love.
For the record, I am not for Exclusive Psalmody, think electric guitars can be played worshipfully, and can accept spontaneous dance on extraordinary occasions ( as did King David)...but the circumstances you describe look like an attempt to force a form of worship on other's consciences. I don't blame you for walking out.
Maybe someone has already said this, but I don't think it is appropriate for "young people" to lead the singing for worship. That should be the pastor's job.
It is amazing how one grows in Grace and the Knowledge of the Lord when one can be engaged in Worship without their conscience being burdened with violations of the RPW.
kalawine
Puritan Board Junior
Could it be argued that brining the pop-culture into the church breeds irreverence?
This is terrible news. It sounds like many of the Assemblies of God churches that I have encountered. They have bought into the cultural relevancy argument, which in my experience only promotes sacrilege. I don’t think Paul would endorse the “dog and pony show” that so many churches put on today.
I agree Jonathan. You and I have both spent years in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. I believe that many people who promote such "worship" don't really understand where a Church is headed in a situation like this unless they have had at least a little experience with it.
It seems to me that there are many honest Christian people that see their "dead" Church as a place that needs to "liven up." They visit other PCA Churches and see this sort of thing and want to bring it home.
But these people have never had the experience of lying on the floor (after being "slain in the Spirit") next to a flakey man or woman that is "laughing in the Spirit" or giving birth "spiritually." (Yes... they actually get in position and push)
Am I over reacting? You can judge as you see fit. But in my experience it begins with "true worship" like "expressing youself" by raising hands (almost on cue every time - of course we all know what part of the song that we are to lift our hands) and eventually you are "dancing like David did." (To quote my good friend Seb, "Shall we get down to our undies?")
Bottom line: Where did this begin and what is it leading to?
kalawine
Puritan Board Junior
Matthias
Puritan Board Junior
One of the main reasons we have Elders is because they are supposed to be QUALIFIED to make proper Godly decisions. When these "Elders" turn over aspects of leadership to teens who are NEVER qualified to make decisions, they have turned Church order on its ears. It should be the Church Elders job to set Godly examples for these teens whether they like it or not, not give in to their every whim.
I agree with Theognome and his suggestions. When that fails, make the extra 5 mile trip to the OPC.
Or better yet, find a RBC.....*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
I agree with Theognome and his suggestions. When that fails, make the extra 5 mile trip to the OPC.
Or better yet, find a RBC.....*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
Our church a while back went through a long protracted study of worship in the Bible. The RPW first means that we know what God does require for worship, and then we implement that and that only.
There are several things I already knew. First, the kind of music (genre if you will) means nothing. The instruments mean nothing (sorry folks, I see God commanding the use of instruments in the OT, and I see no reason to state the particular kinds are anything other than circumstance). Lyrics do make a difference. What is hardest to keep is who are the "players" and who is the "audience."
The audience in worship is God. All our worship is to him and him alone. The RPW is not anything if it doesn't point to God as the persons to whom worship is directed. Nothing in worship is directed toward those that are not saved, or toward those that are in the congregation. All worship is worship of God, or it is not Christian worship at all.
That does not mean that worship cannot call those that are lost to repentance, but that is not the point of worship. Worship is *NOT* evangelism, even though the appropriate preaching of the word (God speaking to His people through a pastor) can and often does convict people of sin, and drives to Christ those outside the church. But that is not the point of worship.
If the audience is God, the idea that worship is "meaningful to me" becomes takes a different shape that what most think when they say those words. How worship effects us is secondary. Primarily, worship is toward God. How worship reaches to the congregation is of very little importance.
If the audience in worship is God, the players are the congregation. The easiest way I can describe if worship is being appropriately done, even if I cannot put a "this violates the RPW" label on it, is does the congregation even matter. In a rock concert, you might have people singing with the band, but that is totally incidental (unless the person next to you can't sing and doesn't know it <grin>) to the performance. The performance is the people "on stage" and they perform. If the congregation is incidental, the leadership in that church has lost sight of who worships, and who the audience is. It is the people (the congregation) that worships. All the rationalization of any part of worship in which the congregation of saints is superfluous is not worship. Even the sermon requires that the congregation of the saints hear. While "special music" might not be inappropriate (music in which the congregation listens and is moved to the ponder the attributes of God) it should not be the only music, and certainly the congregation ought to be the "players" in the music. If the music would be just as well "performed" with no congregation of saints, then it is not worship (God does not care about the worship of 10 people if it is the whole church that is supposed to be worshipping him).
Getting that right, is getting the RPW right. If you are worried about God being the audience, the congregation the players, and anyone else just helping the players in their worship, then the worship service will gravitate toward what is right (in a Biblical framework ... all bets are off if the Bible is not being preached and taught!)
If the questions being asked in setting up worship are justifications for what is being done rather than the finding what to do, the worship will be wrong. Asking with what will the congregation worship the God of the universe? How will they see God for who he is, themselves for who they are in relationship to God and respond to that? If those are the *first* questions, the rest will follow. If the questions are more "can we fit this into the RPW" and that is allowed to stand, the church is lost.
There are several things I already knew. First, the kind of music (genre if you will) means nothing. The instruments mean nothing (sorry folks, I see God commanding the use of instruments in the OT, and I see no reason to state the particular kinds are anything other than circumstance). Lyrics do make a difference. What is hardest to keep is who are the "players" and who is the "audience."
The audience in worship is God. All our worship is to him and him alone. The RPW is not anything if it doesn't point to God as the persons to whom worship is directed. Nothing in worship is directed toward those that are not saved, or toward those that are in the congregation. All worship is worship of God, or it is not Christian worship at all.
That does not mean that worship cannot call those that are lost to repentance, but that is not the point of worship. Worship is *NOT* evangelism, even though the appropriate preaching of the word (God speaking to His people through a pastor) can and often does convict people of sin, and drives to Christ those outside the church. But that is not the point of worship.
If the audience is God, the idea that worship is "meaningful to me" becomes takes a different shape that what most think when they say those words. How worship effects us is secondary. Primarily, worship is toward God. How worship reaches to the congregation is of very little importance.
If the audience in worship is God, the players are the congregation. The easiest way I can describe if worship is being appropriately done, even if I cannot put a "this violates the RPW" label on it, is does the congregation even matter. In a rock concert, you might have people singing with the band, but that is totally incidental (unless the person next to you can't sing and doesn't know it <grin>) to the performance. The performance is the people "on stage" and they perform. If the congregation is incidental, the leadership in that church has lost sight of who worships, and who the audience is. It is the people (the congregation) that worships. All the rationalization of any part of worship in which the congregation of saints is superfluous is not worship. Even the sermon requires that the congregation of the saints hear. While "special music" might not be inappropriate (music in which the congregation listens and is moved to the ponder the attributes of God) it should not be the only music, and certainly the congregation ought to be the "players" in the music. If the music would be just as well "performed" with no congregation of saints, then it is not worship (God does not care about the worship of 10 people if it is the whole church that is supposed to be worshipping him).
Getting that right, is getting the RPW right. If you are worried about God being the audience, the congregation the players, and anyone else just helping the players in their worship, then the worship service will gravitate toward what is right (in a Biblical framework ... all bets are off if the Bible is not being preached and taught!)
If the questions being asked in setting up worship are justifications for what is being done rather than the finding what to do, the worship will be wrong. Asking with what will the congregation worship the God of the universe? How will they see God for who he is, themselves for who they are in relationship to God and respond to that? If those are the *first* questions, the rest will follow. If the questions are more "can we fit this into the RPW" and that is allowed to stand, the church is lost.
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I would ask my elder (note to self: ask about the horror known as praise dance) then ask the session what the logic used to decide the worship service was. And then scripturally state my objections. For what it's worth, "The music was horrible! We never want to hear that garbage again" will shut down discussion pretty quickly.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
Stage one is the dramatic exit, which serves to get people to consider the reasons and put the leadership on notice.
Stage two depends on whether your family is strong enough to go through the complaint process.
The PCA is probably the best Reformed denomination in the US. The "fringe" comes about when the few knowledgeable people in every congregation do nothing. And when they do nothing things get out of hand. But confronting the leadership has it's price, and not everyone has the duty to pay it. An OPC senior minister who posts here told me "NorCal has to be reformed, but you're not the man to do it". Kind of humbling, but necessary to hear.
So, look within yourself, talk to your wife and older kids and decide whether fight or flight is the best for your situation.
Stage two depends on whether your family is strong enough to go through the complaint process.
The PCA is probably the best Reformed denomination in the US. The "fringe" comes about when the few knowledgeable people in every congregation do nothing. And when they do nothing things get out of hand. But confronting the leadership has it's price, and not everyone has the duty to pay it. An OPC senior minister who posts here told me "NorCal has to be reformed, but you're not the man to do it". Kind of humbling, but necessary to hear.
So, look within yourself, talk to your wife and older kids and decide whether fight or flight is the best for your situation.
wturri78
Puritan Board Freshman
I sat through a service in the "conservative" PCUSA congregation where we used to attend, where the "children's sermon" involved having all the kiddies sit in the front while two people dressed in huge, Sesame Street knock-off costumes came out and danced to some song about Jesus loving us. I was in the OPC a week later and haven't looked back. At the time, from what little I knew of historic Reformed belief and practice, I thought the OPC was too...extreme?...and too old-fashioned. But the puppets convinced me that I'd rather sing hymns with stodgy old-schoolers than pretend that such nonsense was appropriate. Now I'm getting stodgy myself...
At some point, somebody is bound to quote people from centuries past who complained about the "novelty" of the music of their day--wild new music by rebels like Isaac Watts, with tunes that smacked of worldly drivel, like Bach. I read some quote from Plato once, lamenting how the music of his day was ruining their youth. So some degree of perspective is important. I do not side with the EP position and although I do respect it, I've heard two people who are EP argue with each other about what's actually proper when singing acapella, and what "goes too far." So preferences and culture will never cease to influence us. And, somebody's conscience will always be offended by something that happens. We must respect the weaker brothers, but at some point it could become an impediment to others.
If we point out that dancing in the aisles is too much, somebody will quote Psalm 150 about praising God with the dance. If we say that rock music and drumbeats are too secular, or sound too much like the "pagan" world around us and will hinder us from worshipping God properly, somebody will point out again that even classical music was novel once, and could just as easily hinder somebody who was used to that as secular music.
I really don't know where to draw the lines. I really don't! But someone much earlier pointed out that teens don't necessarily flock to rock music and "me too!" worship services. There seems to be quite a current of young people who are realizing that popular culture is weak and shallow, and are fleeing in search of something deeper. Those churches that try to tag along with pop culture will just as quickly be "uncool" as they might have been "cool" when they brought in the bands. There seems to be no shortage of young people looking at Eastern Orthodoxy or the emergent stuff (which seems to want to be Eastern Orthodox-ish, only without the Christianity part!) simply because it represents a link to the past, and deep spirituality.
And personally, I'd rather wear a robe and chant in Greek than listen to most of what passes for "praise music" in Evangelical churches...especially when dancing puppets are involved!
At some point, somebody is bound to quote people from centuries past who complained about the "novelty" of the music of their day--wild new music by rebels like Isaac Watts, with tunes that smacked of worldly drivel, like Bach. I read some quote from Plato once, lamenting how the music of his day was ruining their youth. So some degree of perspective is important. I do not side with the EP position and although I do respect it, I've heard two people who are EP argue with each other about what's actually proper when singing acapella, and what "goes too far." So preferences and culture will never cease to influence us. And, somebody's conscience will always be offended by something that happens. We must respect the weaker brothers, but at some point it could become an impediment to others.
If we point out that dancing in the aisles is too much, somebody will quote Psalm 150 about praising God with the dance. If we say that rock music and drumbeats are too secular, or sound too much like the "pagan" world around us and will hinder us from worshipping God properly, somebody will point out again that even classical music was novel once, and could just as easily hinder somebody who was used to that as secular music.
I really don't know where to draw the lines. I really don't! But someone much earlier pointed out that teens don't necessarily flock to rock music and "me too!" worship services. There seems to be quite a current of young people who are realizing that popular culture is weak and shallow, and are fleeing in search of something deeper. Those churches that try to tag along with pop culture will just as quickly be "uncool" as they might have been "cool" when they brought in the bands. There seems to be no shortage of young people looking at Eastern Orthodoxy or the emergent stuff (which seems to want to be Eastern Orthodox-ish, only without the Christianity part!) simply because it represents a link to the past, and deep spirituality.
And personally, I'd rather wear a robe and chant in Greek than listen to most of what passes for "praise music" in Evangelical churches...especially when dancing puppets are involved!
shackleton
Puritan Board Junior
On one of the latest White Horse Inn's a similar topic was brought up, "Why Johnny Can't Preach." The issue of music came up and it was stated that music is everywhere and this is the kind of music they listen to so that is what they expect from church because that is all they know. Anywhere I go now there is loud pop music blaring, Sonic, the gas station, outdoor malls you name it and young people are always listening to something on their ipod.
It was stated that if they hear classical or hymns or A Capella this is not what they are used to hearing so they do not like it. It is basically the music of a few generations back.
White Horse Inn (Dr. Michael Horton) - Broadcast Archives
It was either "Why Johnny can't Preach", or "Culturally Relevant Preaching."
It was stated that if they hear classical or hymns or A Capella this is not what they are used to hearing so they do not like it. It is basically the music of a few generations back.
White Horse Inn (Dr. Michael Horton) - Broadcast Archives
It was either "Why Johnny can't Preach", or "Culturally Relevant Preaching."
chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
While the session's actions may call into question the wisdom of this decision, I think we owe them -- by virtue of their office, if not simply by virtue of their profession -- an optimistic expectation. That is, I don't think going to your elders should be simply a formality, with no expectation of success. Aren't we to expect great things of those being transformed? So they made a bad decision perhaps. I would go to them with the humility and respect owed to the office, and I would make my case on the scriptures. Then I would trust that God's word would have its proper effect -- after all, these men are not only believers, but have been called to lead God's flock.
All I'm saying is, don't pack your bags yet -- just assuming that they won't listen because they are all foolish and blind. If that is how you view the elders, you either need to pack your bags irrespective of this issue ... or you need to repent of that attitude. Not knowing your elders, I don't know which it is.
I'd also like to urge caution to those disparaging the PCA. Few of us have broad enough exposure to any denomination to paint it with a broad brush. The OPC is rather small, but it has significant diversity. And I know very well that the PCA has an even greater diversity. It is a confessional denomination, and a good one. You may disagree with some of the positions the denomination has taken, and you may disagree with the actions of a particular local church in the denomination, but I think we ought to offer the denomination as an institution the same courtesy we would offer an individual -- focus on the issue and not the person/institution.
All I'm saying is, don't pack your bags yet -- just assuming that they won't listen because they are all foolish and blind. If that is how you view the elders, you either need to pack your bags irrespective of this issue ... or you need to repent of that attitude. Not knowing your elders, I don't know which it is.
I'd also like to urge caution to those disparaging the PCA. Few of us have broad enough exposure to any denomination to paint it with a broad brush. The OPC is rather small, but it has significant diversity. And I know very well that the PCA has an even greater diversity. It is a confessional denomination, and a good one. You may disagree with some of the positions the denomination has taken, and you may disagree with the actions of a particular local church in the denomination, but I think we ought to offer the denomination as an institution the same courtesy we would offer an individual -- focus on the issue and not the person/institution.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Sorry, I think this would backfire. It might sound know-it-allish or sarcastic for a layman to go to their elders and ask them, "Do you even know what the RPW is..."
It would not go over well I think.
Plus, the RPW is often like a wax nose which can be shaped to fit someone's needs and EPers will say that WE don't understand the RPW.
To allow one form of instrumentation and not another is inconsistent...if violas are allowed then guitars are allowed, and clapping is allowed. I cannot see why one instrument is holy and another is worldy.
I am not sure that the RPW condemns music, or hand raising or even other very physical expressions of faith.
The complainer could look like a real curmudgeon, and might in fact be a curmudgeon if their chief complaint was the style of music and not the poor way that these changes were enacted.
If any complaint is made, the method of change and the giving over of the "worship" (i.e. music) of the service to teens would need to be the main focus and not the style of music.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
What Clark posted,
One of the greatest difficulties I see among many reformed folks that are not elders is the attitude that they know better than the elders that God in his providence has put in place to lead and serve them. You may well know more, but all too often elders are approached with no respect for the grave position in which they serve. The writer of Hebrews has some pretty serious words pertaining to this.
I will agree that the scene described causes me to wonder what is going on, but the elders are not accountable to you ultimately. They are accountable to God. I have seen situations in which elders have made poor decisions and it was prayerfully and loving brought to their attention - and results were positive. More often, I have seen situations in which people approached elder offended, defensive, and full of accusations and the results have not been good. How often is serious prayer offered for the elders who keep watch over your souls? I'm not casting stones, just asking. From my experience all too often prayer for elders is not very high on most church members' list; especially if one disagrees with something they have said or done.
is so critical that I want to highlight it.
One of the greatest difficulties I see among many reformed folks that are not elders is the attitude that they know better than the elders that God in his providence has put in place to lead and serve them. You may well know more, but all too often elders are approached with no respect for the grave position in which they serve. The writer of Hebrews has some pretty serious words pertaining to this.
I will agree that the scene described causes me to wonder what is going on, but the elders are not accountable to you ultimately. They are accountable to God. I have seen situations in which elders have made poor decisions and it was prayerfully and loving brought to their attention - and results were positive. More often, I have seen situations in which people approached elder offended, defensive, and full of accusations and the results have not been good. How often is serious prayer offered for the elders who keep watch over your souls? I'm not casting stones, just asking. From my experience all too often prayer for elders is not very high on most church members' list; especially if one disagrees with something they have said or done.
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