Betraying the Reformation

[py3ak]

Dr. Trueman has an excellent piece on how the premise of multi-site ministries commits some of the very failings the Reformation protested.

Thoughts about the piece?

(Let's keep this one on topic: it's not about Dr. Trueman overall, it's not about tone, it's about the argument: do multi-site ministries represent a return to absenteeism and pluralism? And if so, why are people who self-identify as Reformed or Calvinistic embracing this enthusiastically?)

 

[sdesocio]

Scottish Presbyterianism had the similar issues during the killing times (not enough local oversight). Would we deny that they were genuinely Reformed?

 

[fredtgreco]

Scottish Presbyterianism had the similar issues during the killing times (not enough local oversight). Would we deny that they were genuinely Reformed?

I think we would if the issue then was not the result of ministers being killed and worship being outlawed. Here is the issue is basically that they want a star preacher and won't find local oversight, in spite of the fact that there are hundreds of Reformed ministers without a congregation.

 

[py3ak]

Is it your contention that difficulty finding a sufficiency of ministers for remote areas in times of persecution is comparable to opening a new video link campus in an area that already has Reformed churches?

 

[Andres]

I'd buy what Trueman is selling. As Fred and Ruben have noted, the multi-site, megachurch pastor of today seems to set up this style of church simply for no other reason than numbers. And the infatuation with numbers seems not due to a desire for God's glory, but rather a preoccupation with self-glory.

 

[py3ak]

Is it your contention that difficulty finding a sufficiency of ministers for remote areas in times of persecution is comparable to opening a new video link campus in an area that already has Reformed churches?

I don't like your tone, Mister!

Join the crowd, hooligan.

 

[Philip]

I agree with his argument (any deficiencies in tone I tend to think are snarky Britishisms---most Brits I know write this way).

 

[kvanlaan]

My brother goes to a church like that - when he was having marital issues, there was no district elder that knew what was going on. There was no deacon to ask him about more practical issues. There was a live, 3D pastor but while he's there as Bruxy's proxy to answer questions; he doesn't feed the flock.

 

[Rom]

Seeing the ragged, hungry, and spiritually weak flocks that come out of these multi-site campuses with their Star Preachers - I think Carl Trueman is absolutely correct. I came out of this sort of thing and as a fledgling Christian I was happy to discover the PuritanBoard and eventually get into a smaller capital R, Reformed church and really learned the importance of ecclesiology. The impact its had on my family has been profound and I'm grateful to God that there are still smaller churches that labor and toil hard for each and every family put under their care.

 

[Zach]

I think the concerns are pretty valid, Mars Hill Church has churches throughout the Northwest, with a site coming to Orange County and one already in New Mexico. Why? Because people like Mark Driscoll. I think the range of Mars Hill shows the kind of "veneration of the saints" Trueman talks about in the article and that they are ultimately trying to spread the Driscoll "brand". However, I think somewhere in the middle is what Bethlehem Baptist did, keeping their church in one city. I don't see from them the same spreading of John Piper's "brand" but that they outgrew their building. Unfortunately, the reality is that if they would have divided people would have gone to whatever church John Piper was going to pastor because he's a talented preacher. I don't think it's unbiblical to say that some people are exceptionally talented preachers. But, at the end of the day people should go to hear the word preached from whoever is preaching it because its the word of God, not the man in the pulpit. Its certainly less than the best way and I know I would want no part of it, but I think its unfair to criticize all multi-site churches as obsessed with numbers.

What do you all think of Redeemer in NYC where the Pastors will rotate through the various different sites, preaching from the same text, to avoid people trying to flock to wherever Tim Keller is going to be?

 

[Rufus]

I wouldn't throw every large multi-site church out with the bathwater however it does bring up a big issue, I know/have heard of a Gospel Coalition (Maybe a different group) talk where Mark Driscoll and another guy (both preaching at large mutli-site churches) where suggested by Mark Dever that they, while growing up the church, should have had somebody else there preaching.

What do you all think of Redeemer in NYC where the Pastors will rotate through the various different sites, preaching from the same text, to avoid people trying to flock to wherever Tim Keller is going to be?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I was a member of a Church for many years that branched out with Satellite Churches in different cities via media link. The satellite churches all had Elders that operated in their functions at the local level. The Pastor was exceptionally gifted at exegeting the scriptures expositionally and driving home application as the Puritans of old. I am not sure of the effectiveness of those satellite churches as I moved on to a Presbyterian Church. I did have my questions concerning the practice. The building we were using did have to have many expansions and even utilized our old sanctuary with a video link to accommodate the growing crowd. We even went to three services to accommodate the growing crowd. In fact they just worshiped in their new auditorium this past weekend which they had to build to help with the crowd. My concern has always been how big is too big? How many people can they effectually shepherd and take responsibility for? Looking at Richard Baxter's duties and his book the Reformed Pastor just makes me cringe at the responsibilities that might be neglected and even pushed aside when trying to minister to the crowd the all sufficient Word of God. How big is too big?

When I look at the giftedness of Charles Spurgeon and the crowds that thronged to listen to him as he faithfully preached the word of God I have many questions that arise concerning the mega church criticisms and look at the fruit of the ministry of the Word of God through his life. When does size need to be considered? When does the giftedness of a Pastor's gift go beyond being a gift? I am not so sure it is always a look at me situation. I am not so sure the the phrase cult of personality is always applicable. It is a love for the good preaching of the Word of God that draw people to some of this situation. After all, many people love to listen to sermons online because the Word of God is vital in their lives and that is all the people are pursuing. Is it unbalanced to make accommodations for such? I believe it can be on many levels because the body is set up to function locally. The first place the word of God it is supposed to be fed upon is in the home. But the ecclesiastical offices can't function weekly in the home as the Lord has appointed. We need to meet congregationally for the offices to function the way God intended.

Many who have come to faith in this past century have not done so by the means set up in the scriptures. We have leaned heavily upon Revival tactics such as so called crusades (Billy Graham). The Church is no longer the center of our Society and society has divorced the Church as God's appointed means. This has caused a big problem in my estimation. It also leads to a lot of Church jumping. And it relegates God's appointed means as something that isn't that important. It has lead many Churches to accommodate the entertainment scenario to keep its members. I have been guilty of it in my life also. The ends justifies the means has become our motto instead of God's means is the important factor for solid fruit. There is a lot we need to figure out after examining the history of the Church and God's appointed means. We have become accustomed to the extraordinary and forsaken the ordinary and right means of grace in my estimation. After all, McDonalds and fast food is now the ordinary when in fact the ordinary consisted of hard work and meal prepared by mother. We have turned the extraordinary into the ordinary.

Am I making any sense?

 

[Jack K]

Video-link pastoring is a bad idea, for all the reasons Dr. Trueman mentioned. But we need to be careful NOT to react by badmouthing all things big and/or multi-site.

It is NOT necessarily bad for a church that has more than one service, at different times, to hold these in different places around town... either for the sake of outreach, convenience or whatever.

It is NOT necessarily bad for a church to grow so large that the chief preaching pastor doesn't personally know everyone. We shouldn't assume that just because a church is large that must mean it is neglectful in pastoral oversight or is pandering to a celebrity preacher mindset. Large churches do have to take measures to avoid these pitfalls, but small churches have their own challenges and bad tendencies.

What do you all think of Redeemer in NYC where the Pastors will rotate through the various different sites, preaching from the same text, to avoid people trying to flock to wherever Tim Keller is going to be?

Keller is trying to (1) prepare his church and his associate pastors for the day when he will retire and (2) avoid some of the pitfalls that come with being a celebrity preacher. I think his model will ultimately prove better than, say, Driscoll's.

 

[py3ak]

I suppose technically a church that meets in a school on Sunday morning and at a congregant's home on Wednesday is multi-site - but what I understood to be usually meant by multi-site is the use of video technology to import one preacher into multiple locations: that seems like it would inevitably be pluralism, doesn't it?

 

[Bill The Baptist]

I wouldn't throw every large multi-site church out with the bathwater however it does bring up a big issue, I know/have heard of a Gospel Coalition (Maybe a different group) talk where Mark Driscoll and another guy (both preaching at large mutli-site churches) where suggested by Mark Dever that they, while growing up the church, should have had somebody else there preaching.

.
What do you all think of Redeemer in NYC where the Pastors will rotate through the various different sites, preaching from the same text, to avoid people trying to flock to wherever Tim Keller is going to be?

I watched the same video. It was Mark Dever talking with Mark Driscoll and James Macdonald. Both Driscoll and Macdonald use the multi-site, video method and Dever challenged them with the obvious question, why not just raise up pastors and elders and start new churches. Of course being that it was the Gospel Coalition, whose main aim seems to be mutual congratulation, he really didn't challenge them all that much. It would be good to see an interview such as this where the multi-site model was really challenged

 

[Andres]

Mars Hill Church has churches throughout the Northwest, with a site coming to Orange County and one already in New Mexico. Why? Because people like Mark Driscoll.

I would say it has more to do with Mark Driscoll liking Mark Driscoll.

 

[dudley]

"The problem with the way `Reformed' is often used today is that it divorces certain things (typically the five, or more often, four points of Calvinism) from the overall Reformation vision of pastoral care, church worship, Christian nurture and all-round approach to ministry. The Bible becomes sufficient for the doctrines of grace; but what works, what pulls in the punters, becomes the criterion for everything else, especially ecclesiology and pastoral practice."

I think he hit the nail on the head in the above paragraph.
We must maintain the principles of the Reformation and continue the Protestant Reformation in the 21st century.

Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Sola Gratia
Solus Christus
Soli Deo Gloria

The protestant doctrine of Justification by faith alone in Christ alone must be maintained.

I think that many cradle Protestants have forgotten the essence of what the Protestant reformation was about. I believe that we should promote the principles of the Reformation always to our protestant youth. I see in my own life a rebith of the priciples of the Reformation by converts like me to the Reformed Protestant faith.

I do think that ex roman Catholics like myself who are now protestants (15 Million of us in the United States alone) are more authentically protestant than many cradle Protestants because we searched for and found the truth like the reformers of the 16th century. I also think that the reasons and the principles of the Protestant reformation have not been taught to many cradle Protestants in recent years perhaps in the name of Ecumenism which I think was a detraction by Rome to subvert again the truths of the glorious Protestant Reformation.

Roman Catholics are taught and I also believed that the Protestant Reformation was a rebellion solely against authority of the Roman magesterium and the pope. I left the Roman catholic church at first as a rebellion against papal authority and what I saw as abuse of that authority. However as I studied the Protestant Reformation and Protestantism I began to see another picture. I began to understand the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura and began to see that being Protestant was not just a protest but a stand for the truth of the Gospel alone and the authority of scripture alone. I now believe as a Presbyterian that we Protestants should dare not compromise the Gospel by sweeping the Reformation under the rug. The Gospel is too important."

I have become a true Protestant in every way in recent years. It is also why I openly renounce Roman Catholicism as did the Reformers. It is why I openly renounce the pope of Rome as they did and why I now believe the Roman catholic church is an apostate church. It is why I openly declare my self a Reformed Protestant and I am thankful that by the amazing grace of God I am now a Presbyterian. I work to give testimony to the true Faith, the Reformed faith and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Romanists have a man made religion designed by the papacy for over 1500 years. Those man made traditions I list below and also why I am no longer a Roman catholic but a Reformed Protestant. I hope others may read this and be guided out of the bondage of popery as I was.

Was the Protestant Reformation necessary? I believe so. The communication and purity of the Gospel was at stake. Amidst all the conciliation's going on today, we need to keep this in mind: things have not changed that much."

It is why I left the Roman catholic church and why I am now a Reformed Protestant. It is why I am now a Communing member of the Presbyterian church.

The following is from a recent article in the National catholic reporter by a Jesuit priest on why so many catholics are becoming Protestants.

"Sometimes churches bleed, and in America this is occurring most acutely in the Roman Catholic Church where one out of every ten Americans is an ex-Catholic. In a recent Catholic National Reporter article, “The Hidden Exodus: Catholics Becoming Protestants,” the Rev. Thomas Reese S.J. provides reasons for the crisis:

People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.

Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic.

Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst."

The good news is that the Protestant churches are gaining some of the best. Cradle Protestants need to recognize the beauty and truth of the Reformed Protestant faith and never let the Protestant Reformation be over. The Protetsnat Reformation is the protest against heresy and the proclamation of the true Gospel of Christ.We must always continue that cause!

 

[steadfast7]

I think it's possible to view the multisite approach, not as a failed attempt at pastoring a flock digitally, but a means of evangelizing the masses who need to hear the gospel and are not likely to walk into a traditional church anytime soon. Why not view the video-link sermon as something that Whitefield and Wesley would have done, had they the technology. Their main purpose was to maximize reach, and we don't condemn them for it. Note also, that most "sites" have what they call a "campus" pastor, who looks after the pastoral and administrative needs of the local congregation gathering there. He may even preach and do teaching sessions as well, so the people are not that far away from pastoral care.

 

[py3ak]

Almost every bad idea has been justified under the rubric of maximizing reach and preaching the Gospel to those otherwise unlikely to hear. If this is what's going on, then why are established Reformed churches losing people to the latest multimedia center? Because the people already in the Reformed churches are unlikely to walk into a traditional church?

I believe Carl Trueman is right in his polemic against the cult of celebrity: it is not the only problem in the church (for instance, the Bayly brothers are right to identify egalitarianism creeping and rampant as a major issue; Doug Wilson is right to identify heresies about food as a big issue; and others are right to identify Doug Wilson and his crew as a major issue), but it is a severe problem that it seems relatively few are willing to touch. And yet the Lord is quite clear: how can ye believe, which receive honor one of another and seek not the honor that cometh from God only? And I believe Dr. Trueman is right to identify the phenomenon of multi-site churches with an ever growing empire centered around one personality who becomes the basis and center of the entire structure as another instance of the cult of celebrity. The cultural forces that make a celebrity out of someone simply for being notorious are not absent from the church.

 

[Edward]

Deleted by writer as off topic

 

[Romans922]

A multi-site church is a contradiction. In an era where 'church' is defined as a building and not an assembly (which is the correct definition), to have a multi-site church is to have multiple churches or assemblies. The same goes for having more than one worship service that is the same service (music/sermon) [as opposed to morning and evening worship]; multiple services means multiple assemblies or churches.

 

[Andres]

It is NOT necessarily bad for a church to grow so large that the chief preaching pastor doesn't personally know everyone. We shouldn't assume that just because a church is large that must mean it is neglectful in pastoral oversight or is pandering to a celebrity preacher mindset. Large churches do have to take measures to avoid these pitfalls, but small churches have their own challenges and bad tendencies.

As an officer of one of the larger churches represented on the board I applaud your grasp of the situation.

Actually having a large church isn't the situation in this thread. We could debate that in another thread if someone would like, but Trueman's article and this thread are dealing with multi-site churches.

 

[steadfast7]

how can the cult of celebrity be avoided? Even Calvin ensured that he be buried in an unmarked grave for this very reason, and there have always been famous Reformed preachers that the masses have followed like groupies - that's just the nature of man.

 

[Zach]

Mars Hill Church has churches throughout the Northwest, with a site coming to Orange County and one already in New Mexico. Why? Because people like Mark Driscoll.

I would say it has more to do with Mark Driscoll liking Mark Driscoll.

I didn't want to say it that way, but I think you're right. Did you happen to watch the video of him, McDonald, and Dever that was posted in another thread and Sean mentioned in this one? Driscoll asked Dever something about, "How many pastors are in your church?" and responded with something akin to, "Well I have more, I win." I know it was something numerically, Driscoll had more, and he thought he was superior. He just comes across as very arrogant sometimes...

 

[Grimmson]

This multi-site and video feed idea should not surprise us in here; particularly when some smaller churches have a hard time bring in someone to preach that they can afford, because it is cheaper in the long term and potentially bring more people in because of that big name. I am not defending the position, but I can see how it can emerge. And as a churchman it saddens me. I think part of the issue why some of these smaller churches lack someone filling their pulpits is due to the lack of previous pastors training their replacement (apprentice style model) and an over-reliance on seminaries, as reinforced by the requiring of the MDIV degrees. There is not the focus of the local pastor teaching reformed theology to a group of men that would soon be their replacement in the church and can be used to spread the Gospel to other areas, like as was pointed out by the reason the reformers stayed were they were at:

they were too busy training people to go to places where there was no Reformation witness to have found the idea of church planting on the doorstep of faithful churches to be an attractive idea

I think these video feeds are a direct result of the following:
1) personality driven ministries that already exist
2) lack of solid teaching by pastors that care (care which cannot be taught or reinforced by seminaries because of strict deadlines of academics over personal care)
3) a focus on teaching outside of a local assembly of believers (I mean the local church)
4) requirements beyond scripture for the office of a pastor
5) high cost for outsourcing solid Christian education outside of the church to nondenominational ministries and seminaries.

The issue here should not be video or pod cast streaming in churches, but instead of the vacuum that exists that these are filling and how that vacuum got there.

 

[py3ak]

how can the cult of celebrity be avoided? Even Calvin ensured that he be buried in an unmarked grave for this very reason, and there have always been famous Reformed preachers that the masses have followed like groupies - that's just the nature of man.

There's a difference between recognizing that a battle will necessarily be ongoing and deciding it's not a fight we even want to have.

 

[kvanlaan]

Does this not make them just one degree shy of being a televangelist?

 

[Peairtach]

Randy

Many who have come to faith in this past century have not done so by the means set up in the scriptures. We have leaned heavily upon Revival tactics such as so called crusades (Billy Graham). The Church is no longer the center of our Society and society has divorced the Church as God's appointed means. This has caused a big problem in my estimation. It also leads to a lot of Church jumping. And it relegates God's appointed means as something that isn't that important. It has lead many Churches to accommodate the entertainment scenario to keep its members. I have been guilty of it in my life also. The ends justifies the means has become our motto instead of God's means is the important factor for solid fruit. There is a lot we need to figure out after examining the history of the Church and God's appointed means. We have become accustomed to the extraordinary and forsaken the ordinary and right means of grace in my estimation. After all, McDonalds and fast food is now the ordinary when in fact the ordinary consisted of hard work and meal prepared by mother. We have turned the extraordinary into the ordinary.

Am I making any sense?

You're making perfect sense, Randy. Our society is dislocated and doesn't get the balance between the individual and the collective right. Not that any society is perfect in this or anything else, but individuals and societies are to image forth God in His plurality and unity.

God comes to bring healing and balance to congregations, churches and societies, as people are converted and as the principles of His Word are increasingly followed.

Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse." (Mal 4:4-6, NKJV)

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

Reformation21 on the subject of "video screen churches:" Is the Reformation nearly over? Perhaps, but maybe not for the reason you think, - Reformation21 Blog

"Yet these small church pastors can only offer their people hard work and the need for real get-your-hands-dirty commitment. By contrast, the video hook-up brings the fetish to town and makes few demands upon anyone beyond the tech guy, the head of physical plant and the local praise band. In today's consumer world, there is no doubt who has the more attractive product to sell. Presumably the cancer wards will offer similar video link-ups when members of the virtual congregation lie dying and in need of final comfort."

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Reformation21 on the subject of "video screen churches:" Is the Reformation nearly over? Perhaps, but maybe not for the reason you think, - Reformation21 Blog

"Yet these small church pastors can only offer their people hard work and the need for real get-your-hands-dirty commitment. By contrast, the video hook-up brings the fetish to town and makes few demands upon anyone beyond the tech guy, the head of physical plant and the local praise band. In today's consumer world, there is no doubt who has the more attractive product to sell. Presumably the cancer wards will offer similar video link-ups when members of the virtual congregation lie dying and in need of final comfort."

Well said.