Constantlyreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
Do you listen to non-Christian music? If so why, and what bands do you listen to?
Is it permissible?
Just curious on the thoughts here...
Is it permissible?
Just curious on the thoughts here...
Non-Christian music
- Thread starter Constantlyreforming
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It's hard to answer. What is non-Christian music? If it's music composed by non-Christians, the answer is easier.
Beethoven. I listen to his music because I like the synthesis of the best of the Classic and early Romantic period. It also helps remind me that talent is a remarkable method of blinding.
There are many other composers I could bring up for similar reasons.
For non-classical music, I've enjoyed Jerry Jeff Walker, Jimmy Buffett, Rolling Stones, the Doors, Country Joe and the Fish, and many others. I still like some of their more insightful tunes. Sometimes those people compellingly capture the difficulty of living after the Fall.
But I don't know any of the newer bands.
Beethoven. I listen to his music because I like the synthesis of the best of the Classic and early Romantic period. It also helps remind me that talent is a remarkable method of blinding.
There are many other composers I could bring up for similar reasons.
For non-classical music, I've enjoyed Jerry Jeff Walker, Jimmy Buffett, Rolling Stones, the Doors, Country Joe and the Fish, and many others. I still like some of their more insightful tunes. Sometimes those people compellingly capture the difficulty of living after the Fall.
But I don't know any of the newer bands.
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Constantlyreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
yeah, that was basically my question....music composed by non-Christians. At times, Christians will release music into the secular market as well...
Mindaboo
Puritan Board Graduate
I listen to some classical music. I don't think it has to be Christian composed for us to enjoy the beauty of it. It's still a gift from God...common grace. My kids play classical music, and I have often found myself wondering if some of it's appropriate. When I look up the stories behind why it was written I'm shocked. The music is beautiful, but the story behind it is not. When I've taken my kids to the symphony we'll often go to the lectures before the concert, and the conductor will tell what was happening historically during the times the music was written and will speak about the composer and what the song is supposed to illustrate. Some of it's pretty bad. I wonder if I should listen to those songs.
It will be interesting to hear what other's thoughts are on this.
It will be interesting to hear what other's thoughts are on this.
joejohnston3
Puritan Board Sophomore
I enjoy jazz and classical but try to avoid any music that is offensive or compromising. In this day and age it is harder to come by music that is acceptable.
Bible Belt Presbyterian
Puritan Board Freshman
I listen to all kinds of music, but mainly for the music itself than the lyrics. Actually, it is pretty much everything other than heavy metal/screaming, hip-hop, and K-love. I enjoy the tempo of country music but the lyrics have gotten so cheesy I can't listen to it for long. I enjoy everything from Bob Dylan to Mozart to hymns (which is why I don't care for K-Love).
I may be sinning in listening to it but I feel as though I can listen to it whilst still guarding my mind and heart from the lyrics. I have used a few songs when working with youth to show how society things and how pitiful and wrong it is, and how it will lead to nothing. Therefore, I think there is some use in knowing what society is "saying". Francis Schaeffer in describing the "Line of Despair" shows that it starts in philosophy and progresses to art, music, general culture, and then finally to theology.
I may be sinning in listening to it but I feel as though I can listen to it whilst still guarding my mind and heart from the lyrics. I have used a few songs when working with youth to show how society things and how pitiful and wrong it is, and how it will lead to nothing. Therefore, I think there is some use in knowing what society is "saying". Francis Schaeffer in describing the "Line of Despair" shows that it starts in philosophy and progresses to art, music, general culture, and then finally to theology.
Bethel
Puritan Board Freshman
I've been struggling with this question as well. Some of the clothes & shoes that I wear are probably made by non-Christians, and some of the stores where I shop are probably owned or employed by non-Christians (granted there are Christians in these sectors); so why can't I listen to music that is produced by non-Christians? As I answer this question for myself, the problem that I come up against is that music can affect me emotionally whereas the shirt I'm wearing doesn't do that (unless, of course, I think it makes me look fat). My personal conclusion so far is that music is not amoral (or at least the lyrics are not), but as Mindy's comment on the background of some of the classical music suggests, I'm even wondering if the music itself can be amoral.
Therefore, I've recently limited my music intake as I've thought about this and I found that I listen to more sermons and read my Bible more throughout the day, so I've seen some positive results. Of course, I would not take my experience and make it a requirement for all Christians, but for me, limited music exposure (Christian and non-Christian) has been a positive move.
In addition, to make the music that I do listen to more edifying in my life, I've decided to focus on the Psalter. "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God," (1 Cor. 10:31).
As an adult Christian, secular music has been a stronghold for me that I have ignored. God is so gracious to continue His sanctifying work in my life.
Therefore, I've recently limited my music intake as I've thought about this and I found that I listen to more sermons and read my Bible more throughout the day, so I've seen some positive results. Of course, I would not take my experience and make it a requirement for all Christians, but for me, limited music exposure (Christian and non-Christian) has been a positive move.
In addition, to make the music that I do listen to more edifying in my life, I've decided to focus on the Psalter. "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God," (1 Cor. 10:31).
As an adult Christian, secular music has been a stronghold for me that I have ignored. God is so gracious to continue His sanctifying work in my life.
Bible Belt Presbyterian
Puritan Board Freshman
I do want to add a clarification though. If it is blatantly offensive then I won't listen to it, but if Peter Frampton comes on I won't be turning it off. I use that as an example because it just came on.
Zach
Puritan Board Senior
I used to listen to a lot of classic rock and really enjoyed it. The reality is, so much of it is engrained in my head after years of listening. Sometimes a song will come on Pandora, the radio, or be played at a restaurant I'm in and I'll think, "Great song!" and follow along. I've been appalled at how much of what I thought was "good music" was really just about celebrating wickedness. The worst part is, it is engrained in my brain. Talk about wasting my mind!
Supersillymanable
Puritan Board Freshman
I can't see how listening to music made by non-Christians can be by definition wrong. That's like saying reading books or appreciating art by non-Christians is wrong.
For me the issue has always been this: what worldview is being promoted in this song? I really enjoy hip-hop, but I have cleansed the vast majority of it from my iPod. Why? Because almost all of it is full of guns, drugs and chauvinistic sexual objectifying of women. I will not fill my head with that stuff. I also found that too much listening to music that pus forward a worldview contrary to the Bible actually screws my thought patterns. It happens over the length of a few months, but it does happen eventually. So I'm rather careful with what I listen to now. I'd much rather fill my head with a sermon or lecture from Michael Horton, John piper, MacArthur, etc than fill my head with rubbish, so why settle for second best?
For me the issue has always been this: what worldview is being promoted in this song? I really enjoy hip-hop, but I have cleansed the vast majority of it from my iPod. Why? Because almost all of it is full of guns, drugs and chauvinistic sexual objectifying of women. I will not fill my head with that stuff. I also found that too much listening to music that pus forward a worldview contrary to the Bible actually screws my thought patterns. It happens over the length of a few months, but it does happen eventually. So I'm rather careful with what I listen to now. I'd much rather fill my head with a sermon or lecture from Michael Horton, John piper, MacArthur, etc than fill my head with rubbish, so why settle for second best?
Mindaboo
Puritan Board Graduate
What is CCM?
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Contemporary Christian Music
Scottish Lass
Puritan Board Doctor
It generally stands for Contemporary Christian Music, but it includes stuff from the 70's and 80's, so the "Contemporary" part is pretty shaky.
Constantlyreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
In general, if I am to listen to ANY Christian music, it will be one of the following:
Phil Keaggy
Keith Green
early Whiteheart and Mastedon
In general, most of what I listen to is considered "INdie", which translates into off the main grid of popular secular music.
Phil Keaggy
Keith Green
early Whiteheart and Mastedon
In general, most of what I listen to is considered "INdie", which translates into off the main grid of popular secular music.
Constantlyreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
THere is some good stuff out there, but it would be INDIE Christian music, not your usual CCM stuff,.
Mindaboo
Puritan Board Graduate
I realized that after I hit the post button. But thanks for clarifying for me. I'm a little slow these days.
Franz Joseph haydn
When you're EP and don't have any particular need or taste for Christian praise songs, there's not much Christian music left over. There is some good music made by Christians that is not necessarily "worship music" but just music about life in the context of the Christian faith. Wholesome music by non-Christians, where such can be found, is also fine with me. Lately I've been listening to classical music and bluegrass. Bluegrass has a lot of Christian themes.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Some Christians will listen to music composed only by professed Christians. This is, I believe, fundamentally misguided.
Here's why: There is an apparent assumption at work here and it is that the religious profession of the musician is paramount when considering music. It is not. One may be a fervent Christian and write music of poor quality. One may not profess faith and write excellent music. Just as truth is not person relative, so aesthetic excellence is not person relative. Mozart, for example (or the great Beethoven, as Vic noted), was not a Christian but, from any objective musical analysis, wrote remarkable music.
Many Christians at this point may frown and protest, "All musical analyses are purely subjective, based merely on personal taste." There is certainly a signficant aspect of taste to music, in terms of what particular persons may like or dislike. Such a subjective aspect, however, does not mean that all is pure subjectivity. Music is both an art and a science to which various sorts of criticism may be brought: some music, across all musical spectra, well expresses all the elements of musical composition and may be said to be beautiful while some music fails, even within its genre, to do so and is rightly deemed inferior.
It's interesting when Christians demur here and insist that all is a matter of taste. Christians would never be relativists in metaphysics, epistemology, or ethics, but, for some reason, find relativism warranted in aesthetics. No, aesthetics has standards too, as do all arts, crafts, and all human endeavors. The principles for such are found in Scripture (we are to endeavor to do all things well, to the glory of God) while, in each case, the particulars reside within the craft itself, as a good creation of God. In other words, because the Bible does not give details for plumbing (an oft used illustration these days), this does not mean that such do not reside in and are developed from the craft. The Bible has more to say about music than many tasks but not compositionally, as such. It's simply ignorance about music as a craft that prompts one to insist that there are no standards. No real musician thinks that.
All this, then, has been to say that the real question is not whether music is written by a Christian, but whether the music evinces the excellence that it is meant to as a good gift of our gracious God. Much "Christian" music does not. Much "non-Christian" music does. I listen to a lot of great music written by professing Christians and others. Some of this is contemporary. I am not arguing that all good music is old. But all good music is good music (there's some music that is objectively good that I care less for than other good music).
I am about to give a lecture to a group of potential future ministers on the topic, "The Minister and Music," which I've developed under these three points: "Learn the psalter and the hymnal" (using them devotionally as well as liturgically); "Look for help from the musicians in your church" (in terms of helping to sing the church's music and be aware of performance practices); and, lastly, "Listen to good music" (and here I will cite, among others, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Brahms, Vaughn Williams, and Rutter). So many young men have only heard, outside of a limited amount of church music, popular music, much of which is, politely, insipid. It's like only dining at McDonald's one's whole life. Young men need to have a much better diet than that. We all need to have a good musical diet.
Peace,
Alan
Here's why: There is an apparent assumption at work here and it is that the religious profession of the musician is paramount when considering music. It is not. One may be a fervent Christian and write music of poor quality. One may not profess faith and write excellent music. Just as truth is not person relative, so aesthetic excellence is not person relative. Mozart, for example (or the great Beethoven, as Vic noted), was not a Christian but, from any objective musical analysis, wrote remarkable music.
Many Christians at this point may frown and protest, "All musical analyses are purely subjective, based merely on personal taste." There is certainly a signficant aspect of taste to music, in terms of what particular persons may like or dislike. Such a subjective aspect, however, does not mean that all is pure subjectivity. Music is both an art and a science to which various sorts of criticism may be brought: some music, across all musical spectra, well expresses all the elements of musical composition and may be said to be beautiful while some music fails, even within its genre, to do so and is rightly deemed inferior.
It's interesting when Christians demur here and insist that all is a matter of taste. Christians would never be relativists in metaphysics, epistemology, or ethics, but, for some reason, find relativism warranted in aesthetics. No, aesthetics has standards too, as do all arts, crafts, and all human endeavors. The principles for such are found in Scripture (we are to endeavor to do all things well, to the glory of God) while, in each case, the particulars reside within the craft itself, as a good creation of God. In other words, because the Bible does not give details for plumbing (an oft used illustration these days), this does not mean that such do not reside in and are developed from the craft. The Bible has more to say about music than many tasks but not compositionally, as such. It's simply ignorance about music as a craft that prompts one to insist that there are no standards. No real musician thinks that.
All this, then, has been to say that the real question is not whether music is written by a Christian, but whether the music evinces the excellence that it is meant to as a good gift of our gracious God. Much "Christian" music does not. Much "non-Christian" music does. I listen to a lot of great music written by professing Christians and others. Some of this is contemporary. I am not arguing that all good music is old. But all good music is good music (there's some music that is objectively good that I care less for than other good music).
I am about to give a lecture to a group of potential future ministers on the topic, "The Minister and Music," which I've developed under these three points: "Learn the psalter and the hymnal" (using them devotionally as well as liturgically); "Look for help from the musicians in your church" (in terms of helping to sing the church's music and be aware of performance practices); and, lastly, "Listen to good music" (and here I will cite, among others, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Brahms, Vaughn Williams, and Rutter). So many young men have only heard, outside of a limited amount of church music, popular music, much of which is, politely, insipid. It's like only dining at McDonald's one's whole life. Young men need to have a much better diet than that. We all need to have a good musical diet.
Peace,
Alan
I've wrestled with this basically since becoming a Christian, and my current approach may not be correct, but this is where I currently stand.
Almost all of the music I listen to when I'm not at Church is made by people who aren't Christian. I tend to be a post-modern when it comes to music, i.e. the song doesn't mean the same thing to you as it means to the writer, especially when there are no vocals (so all you guys who listen to classical shouldn't be having close to the same application difficulties when it comes to music). Without words there is hardly any objective meaning -- only a mood, either a happy song, a somber song, maybe morose, whatever -- but it's only a mood, which says absolutely nothing about the narrative and doctrines I believe in. When there are vocals, it gets a little more tricky. I would even say it's possible for me to enjoy a song a nonchristian writes about say, a guy who commits suicide depending on the perspective I have when I listen to it. If I'm listening with the attitude that I know that this isn't a legitimate path to take that springs from a philosophy that is due to this present evil age, that nevertheless is a reality we face in this valley of tears, my own narrative combats it and is able to transform it and I'm even able to be edified as my hopes are directed towards the consummation.
That said, most of the music I listen to isn't even written in English. But I think any other approach than this will lead to utter chaos and quarreling about things that God created to be received with thanks.
Almost all of the music I listen to when I'm not at Church is made by people who aren't Christian. I tend to be a post-modern when it comes to music, i.e. the song doesn't mean the same thing to you as it means to the writer, especially when there are no vocals (so all you guys who listen to classical shouldn't be having close to the same application difficulties when it comes to music). Without words there is hardly any objective meaning -- only a mood, either a happy song, a somber song, maybe morose, whatever -- but it's only a mood, which says absolutely nothing about the narrative and doctrines I believe in. When there are vocals, it gets a little more tricky. I would even say it's possible for me to enjoy a song a nonchristian writes about say, a guy who commits suicide depending on the perspective I have when I listen to it. If I'm listening with the attitude that I know that this isn't a legitimate path to take that springs from a philosophy that is due to this present evil age, that nevertheless is a reality we face in this valley of tears, my own narrative combats it and is able to transform it and I'm even able to be edified as my hopes are directed towards the consummation.
That said, most of the music I listen to isn't even written in English. But I think any other approach than this will lead to utter chaos and quarreling about things that God created to be received with thanks.
Will it be made available to the PB?
Sometimes songs that are not explicitly Christian are nevertheless able to highlight the damaging effects of sin with particular clarity. Take this one for example:
[video=youtube;cKCRHhmHvjg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cKCRHhmHvjg[/video]
(From about 1:59 to 2:02 there is a well-known synonym for "donkey", so some may not want their children reading along with the subtitles, or listening if their children speak French).
Of course when depravity is highlighted from a non-Christian perspective, it may offer insight, but it will come short of reaching the heart of the problem - rebellion against God. That is where our interpretive filter comes in.
[video=youtube;cKCRHhmHvjg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cKCRHhmHvjg[/video]
(From about 1:59 to 2:02 there is a well-known synonym for "donkey", so some may not want their children reading along with the subtitles, or listening if their children speak French).
Of course when depravity is highlighted from a non-Christian perspective, it may offer insight, but it will come short of reaching the heart of the problem - rebellion against God. That is where our interpretive filter comes in.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Ken:
It's just a little talk that I will give to a dozen and a half young men (at a luncheon at Mid-America) attending the Timothy Conference, an OPC program that seeks to challenge high schoolers and college men to consider the gospel ministry.
I don't anticipate that it will be recorded (the talk that I am more competent to give, on Machen, will be the more developed one!). I am only an avid amateur, not having degrees in music, though I am musically trained and have taken some course work in the music department years ago. I simply love good music and have been playing, listening to and attending musical performances for about forty years. I've been asked to do this mainly because I am the chairman of the OPC's Psalter-Hymnal Committee. And I am chairman of that not because I have advanced musical degrees, as do some on the committee. I think particularly of our musicologist, Dr. Timothy Shafer, and his wife, Lou Ann, our music editor. They really know music and are consummate professionals and experts and are worth hearing on this matter. I am just a happy dilettante!
Peace,
Alan
It's just a little talk that I will give to a dozen and a half young men (at a luncheon at Mid-America) attending the Timothy Conference, an OPC program that seeks to challenge high schoolers and college men to consider the gospel ministry.
I don't anticipate that it will be recorded (the talk that I am more competent to give, on Machen, will be the more developed one!). I am only an avid amateur, not having degrees in music, though I am musically trained and have taken some course work in the music department years ago. I simply love good music and have been playing, listening to and attending musical performances for about forty years. I've been asked to do this mainly because I am the chairman of the OPC's Psalter-Hymnal Committee. And I am chairman of that not because I have advanced musical degrees, as do some on the committee. I think particularly of our musicologist, Dr. Timothy Shafer, and his wife, Lou Ann, our music editor. They really know music and are consummate professionals and experts and are worth hearing on this matter. I am just a happy dilettante!
Peace,
Alan
Gage Browning
Puritan Board Freshman
I listen to early U2, The 77's (kinda Christian group), The Choir (kinda Christian), even an occasional Stryper song... My early days influence...
Gage Browning
Puritan Board Freshman
Martin
Puritan Board Freshman
Yes. I am a big music fan. I like the old time string bands, early country music, and such. I really am into the early delta blues/country blues type music. Pretty much anything with fiddle, banjo, dobro, guitar, harmonica, etc . I have a Pandora account set up to play Old Crow Medicine Show and such bands. I also like classic rock and classical. I am not into many other present day acts though. I tend to like the older music or music with older influences.
I listen to it because I enjoy it.
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