9th commandment question

[Notthemama1984]

Can being ecumenical be a breaking of the 9th?

In my readings on the 9th the point is made that not only are we to not bear false witness, but we are also to stand up for truth. It would seem that ecumenism can lead to situations where one is not denying doctrinal truth, but they are not standing up for it either.

Thoughts?

 

[Notthemama1984]

Ecumenism is the idea of groups of Christians putting aside their doctrinal differences as a way of promoting unity. At least this is my definition of ecumenism.

 

[Scott1]

Westminster Larger Catechism

Question 144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things: Whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requires; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of: Whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.

Question 145: What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calls for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice;speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, tale bearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults;hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession;unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any, endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering: What we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.

The ten commandments broadly apply as moral, perpetual law.

There are several aspects that could apply, including one who does not go to church at all is, in a sense, denying before the world what Christ has done- placed them in, by adoption, His Body- which is the church.

Similarly, to represent that some are in the Body of Christ, who clearly do not believe in Him (as He has revealed Himself through His Word), falsely represents Him before the World.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Ecumenism is the idea of groups of Christians putting aside their doctrinal differences as a way of promoting unity. At least this is my definition of ecumenism.

I understand that, I just wasn't sure if you meant in an official/formal sense or unofficial sense.

I suppose it depends on the nature of the ecumenism. Obviously we cannot stand with Rome for her complete denial of proper doctrine of justification by faith alone. However, we can have friendship and communication between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians (etc.) in that we share a proper understanding of the Gospel, etc. To have some kind affiliation one with another wherein differences are not acknowledged, discussed, etc. would fail to be promoting the truth, no?

Even then, however, there can only be so much "communion" between Baptists and Presbyterians due to the sharp disagreement in their understanding of the Covenant of Grace, application of the covenant sign, etc.

I mean in an unofficial sense. More along a personal basis. I would agree that I could not fellowship or worship with Rome, but what about the local churches that are semi-Pelagian? They have the Gospel wrong for sure. Would I be sinning to willingly sit in their church service in an effort to promote unity?

 

[Notthemama1984]

Can two walk together unless they be agreed? You should go to church to be nourished by the preaching of the Word and the administration of the sacraments. It really has nil to do with promoting unity (other than it being a product thereof), or at least it should have nil to do with it. In reality, it would just be unity in error.

Very Good Point. Thank you for that.

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calls for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others;

Do you believe that taking vows in a church or in a denomination that has serious doctrinal errors be breaking the 9th as described in the quote above?

In my mind taking vows to submit to their authority is in some way approving of their errors. Am I right or taking this too far?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Boliver,

I believe the sins of ecumenicism (in terms of how defined) wouldn't precisely be a violation of the 9th Commandment as much as it would be a violation of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Commandments depending upon how one compromises on these principles. The 9th Commandment deals primarily in the area of truth between man and man and upholding another's name.

See here for the duties required and sins forbidden in the first three commandments and you can infer those things that are violated when one puts aside central truths for the sake of "unity": Westminster Larger Catechism - The PuritanBoard

 

[Scott1]

Quote Originally Posted by Scott1 View Post
the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calls for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others;
Do you believe that taking vows in a church or in a denomination that has serious doctrinal errors be breaking the 9th as described in the quote above?

In my mind taking vows to submit to their authority is in some way approving of their errors. Am I right or taking this too far?

It could be, for example representing that one is a Christian, yet denying the trinity, virgin birth, the two natures of Christ, etc. because such are so clearly taught in God's revealed Word.

But taking a vow to learn and study the church's doctrine, to be under her care and discipline when the denomination is wrong in minor points of doctrine, not so much- from the standpoint of the member not having to vow that he agrees with every single point of doctrine, far less understand it. Else, where could a brand new believer go at all?

Yet we violate the ten commandments, broadly applied constantly. We do so in ignorance and intention- and both are grounds for our condemnation before a holy God.

But our salvation is not quite based on this- and in fact, we are called to associate with, and serve in imperfect bodies, denominations, with imperfect people, to recognize that God himself has placed us there.

And, joined us with one catholic, universal body by His spirit- according the good pleasure of His will.

To deny that is another way to violate the ninth commandment, a most grievous one.

 

[Jack K]

The extent of the ecumenicism and the extent of the error really do enter in. Merely meeting together on occasion or cooperating on certain projects does not typically imply agreement with another's statement of faith. So I wouldn't see this as a failure to stand up for truth, especially if the group in question does not espouse heresy. worshipping together regularly implies a greater agreement, so then the matter of standing up for truth becomes more important.

 

[Pergamum]

NOT being ecumenical with other Christians is a 9th commandment violation.

If we separate from others, this was always reserved in the New Testament for heretics and apostates, never Christians of another variety.

John 17 tells us that the Church is a unity. therefore, as much as possible, we ought to show that unity. This means that Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians ought to fellowship as closely as possible, and even with other churches we ought to try to promote unity wherever possible, not by endorsing their errors but by joining them in areas where we can and by prayer and the constant teaching of truth to them.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

NOT being ecumenical with other Christians is a 9th commandment violation.

If we separate from others, this was always reserved in the New Testament for heretics and apostates, never Christians of another variety.

John 17 tells us that the Church is a unity. therefore, as much as possible, we ought to show that unity. This means that Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians ought to fellowship as closely as possible, and even with other churches we ought to try to promote unity wherever possible, not by endorsing their errors but by joining them in areas where we can and by prayer and the constant teaching of truth to them.

If one defines ecumenical merely in terms of having a catholic spirit with respect to the Body of Christ then that's a no-brainer.

Chapter XXV of the WCF:

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.

Chapter XXVI:

II. Saints by profession, are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things, according to their several abilities and necessities. Which communion, as God offereth opportunity, is to be extended unto all those who, in every place, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.

As with anything, words are used equivocally and most who define themselves as belonging to the Ecumenical movement are thinking well beyond the basic desire that Christ's prayer in John 17 would be honored.

When most talk of the [WIKI]Ecumenical movement[/WIKI] today they have in mind things like the [WIKI]World Council of Churches.[/WIKI].