Amilennialism's understanding of Satan

[ServantOfKing]

My pastor sent us a chart of the different milennial views and since I probably won't get a chance to ask him about this for another week or so, I thought I'd ask everyone here...
When amilennialists say that Satan is presently bound and will not be loosed until the second advent, do they mean that Satan has absolutely NO influence in the world right now? Does amilennialism argue that Satan does not presently tempt us or does not "prowl about seeking who he may devour"?
Thanks in advance for your help. My husband and I were raised on Left Behind.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

My pastor sent us a chart of the different milennial views and since I probably won't get a chance to ask him about this for another week or so, I thought I'd ask everyone here...
When amilennialists say that Satan is presently bound and will not be loosed until the second advent, do they mean that Satan has absolutely NO influence in the world right now? Does amilennialism argue that Satan does not presently tempt us or does not "prowl about seeking who he may devour"?
Thanks in advance for your help. My husband and I were raised on Left Behind.

Oh no. I, being amill, believe he is bound in the sense that he is restricted in what he can do in opposition to the gospel, but he is still on the loose seeking whom he may devour.

 

[tcalbrecht]

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

Revelation does not teach that Satan is completely powerless during the "thousand years." Satan is merely bound from deceiving the nations in order that the gospel might be preached and the nations might be discipled (Matt. 28:19).

This binding of Satan in Revelation corresponds to Jesus' words regarding the "binding of the strong man" mentioned in Matt. 12:28,29. It is proof of the establishment of the kingdom of God. The reality of this binding is clear throughout the New Testament as the gospel is successfully preached (cf. Luke 10:18), and believer have power over the Devil (James 4:7; Rom. 16:20).

 

[KMK]

Revelation does not teach that Satan is completely powerless during the "thousand years." Satan is merely bound from deceiving the nations in order that the gospel might be preached and the nations might be discipled (Matt. 28:19).

This binding of Satan in Revelation corresponds to Jesus' words regarding the "binding of the strong man" mentioned in Matt. 12:28,29. It is proof of the establishment of the kingdom of God. The reality of this binding is clear throughout the New Testament as the gospel is successfully preached (cf. Luke 10:18), and believer have power over the Devil (James 4:7; Rom. 16:20).

 

[MrMerlin777]

I heard it put this way once. Satan is like a big dog on a chain tethered to a large post in the ground. Now the dog can run around in a great big circle and has a large "circle of influence" when one walks into the circle they are in danger of being devoured. He still has his influence, but only where he is permited to do so.

Brother James also put it in good terms.

 

[elnwood]

Revelation does not teach that Satan is completely powerless during the "thousand years." Satan is merely bound from deceiving the nations in order that the gospel might be preached and the nations might be discipled (Matt. 28:19).

This binding of Satan in Revelation corresponds to Jesus' words regarding the "binding of the strong man" mentioned in Matt. 12:28,29. It is proof of the establishment of the kingdom of God. The reality of this binding is clear throughout the New Testament as the gospel is successfully preached (cf. Luke 10:18), and believer have power over the Devil (James 4:7; Rom. 16:20).

On the flip side, how do amillennialists view the subsequent release of Satan? That the gospel will no longer be successfully preached but restricted? That the believer will lose some of the power they had over the devil?

 

[B.J.]

On the flip side, how do amillennialists view the subsequent release of Satan? That the gospel will no longer be successfully preached but restricted? That the believer will lose some of the power they had over the devil?

I have always wondered how an Amillennialist accounts for the release of Satan, and the apostasy.


I always ask my Amill brothers how an apostasy is noticable given their pessimistic view of the Gospel. As a PostMill, I obviously see the nations being conquered by the Gospel. Thus creating the proper backdrop of a defined, identifiable apostasy.

 

[MW]

On the flip side, how do amillennialists view the subsequent release of Satan? That the gospel will no longer be successfully preached but restricted? That the believer will lose some of the power they had over the devil?

The question presupposes the idea of "succession," which is not accepted in an idealist view of Revelation. The vision which is seen afterwards is not realised after the thousand years but simultaneously. It is another perspective from which to view the same period. This should be easy to grasp from the reformed perspective of election and reprobation.

 

[elnwood]

The question presupposes the idea of "succession," which is not accepted in an idealist view of Revelation. The vision which is seen afterwards is not realised after the thousand years but simultaneously. It is another perspective from which to view the same period. This should be easy to grasp from the reformed perspective of election and reprobation.

I don't follow.

[bible]Revelation 20:7-8[/bible]

So Satan is not released at the end of the thousand years, but simultaneously? Could you explain in more detail?

 

[Larry Hughes]

The amil position is not pessimistic but the most optimistic there is, hope, that is utter expectation, in the midst of the contrary or contrast of suffering, the devil and appearance of God’s abandonment of God’s people. God hides Himself to reveal Himself this way. He is not revealed in the grand but the abandoned where He is not expected to be. The crucifixion is the decisive definition of this forsaken-ness.

This is the link between personal suffering and the Cross both at the individual level and at the body of Christ level. The men of Satan’s kingdom will be spared suffering in the temporal but not the wrath of God to come, but the people of God will be spared the wrath to come though they suffer here and now. Suffering is what drives men to Christ and it is under suffering that the Gospel becomes the brightest as all forms of “sight” are destroyed. The hope of the Gospel is NOT increased because more are converted, because that does not point to the Cross for you it points to “things great big are happening”, some might say a form of “signs and wonders” faith. Oh no, the Gospel is shown forth most brightly under suffering. No man clings so strongly to Christ as the man reduced to nothing and nothing is all about him, his idols are all burned up in the fires of suffering and at last the Cross is the ONLY place he may look and hope, even in and particularly in suffering.

The whole entire point of the Cross as it links to our suffering is that we do indeed die the first death but the second death we will not suffer. What tormented Jesus at Gethsemane was NOT the physical death on the cross to come as cruel and horrible as that was. Many men have died that way, two that very day, and some worse deaths, the little death or first death of the body. No, what terrified God the Son was the second death, the forsaken wrath of the beloved. THAT death we will not suffer. So when we suffer in this life the pain is real, but we find comfort in that because of Christ we will NOT suffer the second death…morning yet rejoicing.

The Gospel “conquering the world” does not point our “glory diseased” minds to the Cross but the action at hand. What do you do when the action is not big or grand? Doubt the faith? No, when things seem there worse and few believe and apostasy is rampant and it looks as if God has abandoned you/us, God is NEVER closer in this life then in those very times. For among the suffering, the Cross is with you.

Blessings,

Ldh

 

[MW]

You are asking for an explanation of a view you do not understand. If you are going to ask questions for the purpose of discovering what another view teaches, then you will need to try to appreciate what is said from the perspective of the other position without raising issues that arise because of interpretive principles you take for granted. The other position, as has been explained, does not hold to the idea of succession of events. The Apocalypse is a symbolical book, and it is not to be understood in terms of one action following another as we would be compelled to do when reading an historical book. What is the thousand years? It is an ideal period of time in which the purposes of God are fulfilled on behalf of His people. What, then, is the expiration of the thousand years? It must be understood as a period which lies outside of that ideal period which the thousand years represents.

 

[javajedi]

Larry,



That was an excellent post!

 

[MrMerlin777]

The amil position is not pessimistic but the most optimistic there is, hope, that is utter expectation, in the midst of the contrary or contrast of suffering, the devil and appearance of God’s abandonment of God’s people. God hides Himself to reveal Himself this way. He is not revealed in the grand but the abandoned where He is not expected to be. The crucifixion is the decisive definition of this forsaken-ness.

This is the link between personal suffering and the Cross both at the individual level and at the body of Christ level. The men of Satan’s kingdom will be spared suffering in the temporal but not the wrath of God to come, but the people of God will be spared the wrath to come though they suffer here and now. Suffering is what drives men to Christ and it is under suffering that the Gospel becomes the brightest as all forms of “sight” are destroyed. The hope of the Gospel is NOT increased because more are converted, because that does not point to the Cross for you it points to “things great big are happening”, some might say a form of “signs and wonders” faith. Oh no, the Gospel is shown forth most brightly under suffering. No man clings so strongly to Christ as the man reduced to nothing and nothing is all about him, his idols are all burned up in the fires of suffering and at last the Cross is the ONLY place he may look and hope, even in and particularly in suffering.

The whole entire point of the Cross as it links to our suffering is that we do indeed die the first death but the second death we will not suffer. What tormented Jesus at Gethsemane was NOT the physical death on the cross to come as cruel and horrible as that was. Many men have died that way, two that very day, and some worse deaths, the little death or first death of the body. No, what terrified God the Son was the second death, the forsaken wrath of the beloved. THAT death we will not suffer. So when we suffer in this life the pain is real, but we find comfort in that because of Christ we will NOT suffer the second death…morning yet rejoicing.

The Gospel “conquering the world” does not point our “glory diseased” minds to the Cross but the action at hand. What do you do when the action is not big or grand? Doubt the faith? No, when things seem there worse and few believe and apostasy is rampant and it looks as if God has abandoned you/us, God is NEVER closer in this life then in those very times. For among the suffering, the Cross is with you.

Blessings,

Ldh

Your post has litterally moved me to tears. It is good to know that we are not and will not be forsaken.

 

[elnwood]

You are asking for an explanation of a view you do not understand. If you are going to ask questions for the purpose of discovering what another view teaches, then you will need to try to appreciate what is said from the perspective of the other position without raising issues that arise because of interpretive principles you take for granted. The other position, as has been explained, does not hold to the idea of succession of events. The Apocalypse is a symbolical book, and it is not to be understood in terms of one action following another as we would be compelled to do when reading an historical book. What is the thousand years? It is an ideal period of time in which the purposes of God are fulfilled on behalf of His people. What, then, is the expiration of the thousand years? It must be understood as a period which lies outside of that ideal period which the thousand years represents.

I'm just trying to understand the position, that's all.

So the thousand years is, as you say, a "period of time," and the expiration of it is "a period which lies outside that ideal period of time." So ... when is the period of expiration, then?

You said that the Apocalypse is a symbolic book, and I agree, but I still don't know what you're saying the thousand years and its expiration is symbolic for.

 

[ServantOfKing]

Mr. Hughes, your response has helped me a lot! Thank you!

Rev. Winzer: When you say "it is another perspective which to view the same period" and that it's happening simultaneously, are you saying that Satan is deceiving some while the gospel is prospering others? And that this is all happening during "the milennium" (of which there is no specific frame of time i.e. 1,000 years)? Thank you for your patience with me!

 

[MW]

Rev. Winzer: When you say "it is another perspective which to view the same period" and that it's happening simultaneously, are you saying that Satan is deceiving some while the gospel is prospering others? And that this is all happening during "the milennium" (of which there is no specific frame of time i.e. 1,000 years)? Thank you for your patience with me!

In a manner that is what is happening. The Revelation never pictures humanity as "some and others." There are Christ's servants and the worshippers of the beast. This is what makes the dualism of Revelation so vivid, and I think if it were more carefully observed there would not be so much confusion about how to understand the book. This dualism is also apparent in Rev. 20, where Satan is bound from deceiving the nations but then unleashed to prepare the nations for war. The importance is not the time period but the sphere of activity.

Parallel sections of the Revelation (16:12-16; 17:12-17) show us that this deceptive activity has been going on through the ages. It is what moves the masses and their authorities to war against the Lamb and His followers. Armageddon is not an end of the age battle, but a cosmic battle that has been waging through the ages. Satan's work of deceiving the nations takes place outside the sphere of the faithful martyrs of Jesus Christ.

 

[MW]

So the thousand years is, as you say, a "period of time," and the expiration of it is "a period which lies outside that ideal period of time." So ... when is the period of expiration, then?

"When is the period of expiration" requires an answer which depends upon a succession of events, whereas it has been explained that there is no succession. Different times in a symbolic book refer to qualities not quantities of time.

 

[Larry Hughes]

This is why the amil Position is ultimately to me the position to hold, its strengthening of the faith of the brethren through the ages. A lot of times the argument gets into when and how long the 1000 years is. It is important to know that it is the time between the first and second advent to support the issue of the Gospel and faith, but not an ends unto itself. It’s ends is unto the Cross and the faith. This is WHY the point is not “when” but the “certitude” of God’s word. Why is that important? First, we all recognize that God’s Word must and will come to pass because it is God’s Word. But the second is for the faith of the believers through the ages. It is important to God that HIS people KNOW THIS. Why is this important? Because “when” is not as important as “certitude”. Why? Because certitude NOT when will hold one in the faith. The persecution of the brethren under false doctrines of end times by the unbelievers and the devil is ALWAYS unto “see he has not come…nor will…what are you hoping for (laugh laugh)”. The implication is clear, Christ was not who He said He was and your hope is a fairy tale. This is why God gives us certitude and NOT focusing on “when” of a rapture away and out of this suffering or the “appearances” of a grand kingdom here and now slowly developing. Those will lead to apostasy eventually through utter despair.

As I told my wife, “we must teach our children so they can teach their children and so forth unto the generations this what we label as Amil. Why? Everything else is grossly short sighted and ultimately cruel for the future generations. Because one day it will actually be near the very end, be it tomorrow or 10,000 more years from now and THAT generation will face heavy persecution. The dragon no longer seeks the Child for He has been taken up, ascended now and is at the right hand of God, the dragon does persecute the church (the woman) now, BUT one day He will turn everything on the individual believer (All in Rev. 12) and no longer pursue the woman (the church). At that time it is paramount that our people KNOW that God has ordained all this and they WILL be saved though they are horribly persecuted…HE WILL deliver us period for Christ’s sake. This is even true on a less global scale in some anti-Christian countries. What they see and experience, the apparent abandonment of God, which Satan tricks us with individually and corporately to come back to him “as god”, is nothing more than the very suffering that should point us to the Cross (in spite of what I see, do, experience, struggle, sin, etc…) the Cross is always there for me/us.

The other two positions only set one up for failure in times when things are “not good”, indeed horrible. You should read Eli Weisel’s “Night”. A powerful true account of the slow creeping up of the Nazis upon the Jews in the eastern block countries. What is amazing is how slowly and allowed the Jews let them come upon them, their disbelief in the warnings led them to slowly be consumed by the slaughter. It didn’t happen suddenly so that one might be alarmed and flee. It is a short book but exceedingly intense, the suffering they went through. Even just reading it you find yourself exasperated. It’s inconceivable to the modern mind that has never even come close to that level of outward suffering and persecution. That was a time when a manifestation of the beast rose up under Hitler and the Jews where targeted. What struck me about the book was Weisel’s statement that MANY Jews afterward became atheist. Why? The extreme suffering and abandonment and a false view of the faith drove them to assume either God had abandoned them and finally a small leap of reason from there to God doesn’t exist because SURELY He would not allow this happen to God’s people if He did (theology of Glory). Christians today should beware of this. Their view was fundamentally and functionally the same view that ultimately underpins the other two views of the kingdom coming here and now and in power. The Jews of WWII didn’t understand the suffering as to merciful wrath to drive them to the Cross, but rather as ultimate wrath and abandonment, atheism was inevitable at that point. THAT is how an atheist is made. It should have drove them to our God, to the Cross but for the most part it didn’t because they had all along been taught something else about the kingdom of God. This in turn drove them to further apostasy. Not understanding the Cross and suffering, the Gospel, this is what happens. People who think “end times” stuff is but a “non-essential” doctrine we can shake hands on differences are dupped and in my opinion dangerous compromisers for the sake of false ecumenical togetherness. They have NO understanding of the extreme nature of the devil’s persecutions and how this is NOT a secondary doctrine but a doctrine at the very heart of the faith for the faith, hope and love of God’s people.

And this even plays out for us today. Be it on the individual level or corporate level. When bad things happen, either persecution or general suffering in this life (sickness, sudden death of loved ones, tragedy) it is all too easy to think God has abandoned me. The devil’s trick, then, is to turn you from God by holding up only wrath so that you will despair and turn to him thinking him to be god (he will not appear as the devil to you but as god). But this same suffering understood through the Cross turns to favor your faith. For now, though the pain is real (physical, mental or spiritual), personal sin, the sight, experience, feelings, “goings ons” around the country and world which seem contrary to our faith – really make us hold all the more tighter, trusting in the Cross of Christ alone. It DOES NOT remove the very real pain and we should not pretend it does and take a stiff upper lip, but even IN this the Cross is all the more precious! The false crutches of sight and experience are destroyed by suffering for they are no longer able to support and all one can do is grasp the gift of Christ for me/you.

Even today it’s easy to just look around and see Islam growing, Europe practically without the faith anymore, American protestant churches leaning into apostasy and etc…and become despairing. One view says things will get better eventually as the Gospel conquers the world, but reality is in the opposing direction. Another view awaits a “rapture” out of the problem. Theologies of glory always try to work their way out of suffering. But what do you do when in x years neither of these happen, it gets worse and not better and your still around. Even more that generation of Christians in the future who WILL experience extreme persecution and suffering and apostasy, what will these “pie in the sky” doctrines do for them? No, suffering (inward, outward, sins of our own, the sword, etc…) is our lot in Scripture and we MUST teach and know and proclaim that the CERTITUDE of God’s word is that HE WILL deliver HIS people no matter what the most EXTREME contrary of sight, experience, emotions, events, sin, etc… are occurring. If you are suffering from depression, ‘where is God’, then the Cross is your hope, don’t let the devil tell you God has abandoned you because His Word is CERTAIN, Christ FOR YOU. On the contrary to this big things happening, big growing churches are NOT a sign of growth or the Spirit. They are neither here nor there and often times a sign of a false spirit. ONLY the Gospel is a sign of the Church and nothing else…EVEN IF THE ENTIRE CONGREGATION LEAVES A CHRUCH FOR THE LOCAL “GROWING CHURCH” AND THE BUILDING EMPTIES AND ALL THAT IS LEFT STANDING IS A HANDFUL THAT CONTINUE TO DECLARE THE GOSPEL. It is God’s Word that shall stand and not numbers of people!

Certitude of salvation in spite of the future as it is seen and experience is unto the Gospel for the faith, hope and love of His people! Else, we only prepare future Christians to experience their own WWII “Night” and they will become atheist. The issue is not that one group understands the Scriptures better than the other, but the faith. What will bear you up under suffering?

That’s the essential difference.

Blessings,

Larry

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Don -

The Recapitulation of Revelation 19 and 20.
The article, still unanswered, to the Premillennialist Argument and the Millennium. The Millennium is the core argument in determining the validity of the system. If that aspect of a theological system in eschatology goes under, the system itself goes under. Fowler White gives a great critique on this in view of the Millennium chapters of Revelation.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/WhiteFowlerRecapitulationRev19.htm

Everyone should read this. It is very destructive to the premillennial line of thought.

It explains thoroughly the simultaneous "recapitulation" of what Matthew Winzer was explaining, especially concerning the above chapters.

 

[turmeric]

Larry, your post makes me think of this;

[bible]Rom. 8:35-39[/bible]