Another excellent Paul Washer Sermon

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kvanlaan said:
Gabe, I can see your point but like Adam said, I think this is a backlash against our straying ways. I really don't think he preaches like that in the mission field, I think he does it in the US because it is so deeply needed.

The other thing is, we hear a lot of "don't major on the minors" from the pulpit (usually attached to a "legalism stinks, Calvinists" sermon). And that's fine. BUT we should at least minor on the minors, and most of us don't.
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I haven't had a chance to finish listening to the first sermon. Here is where I agree with Gabe so far:

The message is true - American Christians are decadent and self-centered and are full of confidence in a mostly false Gospel. Their lives bear no evidence of a transformed life with Churches full of dead men and pastors who preach to itching ears. His message is a prophetic call of condemnation to a generation that is asleep and needs a reminder of the sobering truth of the Gospel of Christ.

Where I see the strength of his call is the underlining of the LAW - you are condemned! You need to flee from the wrath to come.

Where I see the deficiency is this: he really does not offer Gospel. His constant call is "You need fruit!"

True, again, as far as it goes but how does a man produce fruit if he is a thorn bush? He seems to be implying that they need to generate that which is generated from a re-generated heart.

He should be calling them to belief in the true Gospel that transforms and produces fruit. He's leaving them halfway there. It is my estimation that fruit is not present in most Southern Baptists BECAUSE the Gospel is mixed with pietism: Don't do this or Do this to become a better Christian. What is not lifted up regularly are the demands of the Law (as he does) along with the regular remedy (Christ our righteousness in Word and Sacrament).

I can probably imagine some kids were really convicted by the sermon and I am too. It reminds me of how far I fall short but these are the things that I regularly reflect upon because I'm constantly aware of my failings. I am prone to self-examination to the point of thinking that I'm ultimately saved by my sincerity of belief and "do I really have enough fruit or am I deceiving myself."

I think a sermon like that is useful to wake up deceived and self-righteous people who think that God is playing games with salvation and isn't really serious about wrath. American Christians need to hear a message of God's Holiness and be terrified so they can really appreciate the glory of the Gospel.

But, again, his message is Law. It doesn't really provide the full remedy and full Gospel. He leaves the actual Christian with the idea that you need to look to yourself ultimately to make sure you are bearing fruit or you will be cast aside.

To me, the fact that he is Baptist and has a poor view of the benefit of the Sacraments makes his complete Gospel message somewhat defective.

I don't mean to sound negative as it is very edifying but it's just missing something. Read the book of Hebrews to see how a "pastoral" presentation of God's wrath is followed up by the assurance of the belief of better things for God's elect. We need to be scared but then we need to be reminded of the means of Grace that God uses to uphold us lest we focus on upholding ourselves.
 
I guess one of the things that bothers me about him, and I don't know that it should, but it does...is that he calls himself a prophet.

His message is spot on, and we are called to examine ourselves in Scripture,
and we need to do that more often, comparing ourselves to Christ and not everyone else.

I find the more I examine and compare myself to Christ, the more I realize even more just how sinful I really am before a Just and Holy God, and I become even more thankful and appreciative for Christ's death and resurrection.

And then looking at the things God has shown me thus far about myself and trying to grasp more fully that God chose to save me before the foundation of the earth.

There are no words in the English language to describe how that makes me feel inside, especially knowing, that God still hasn't shown me all the sinful things within my heart that HE knows are there, and knowing He chooses to over look those things and ONLY see the shed blood of His Son that covers it.

Amazing Grace just doesn't seem to cover it very well.
 
Rich, just a comment on: "He leaves the actual Christian with the idea that you need to look to yourself ultimately to make sure you are bearing fruit or you will be cast aside."

Don't you think that the actual Christian would be content and confident in his faith upon hearing this message? If he is not, might it not be an issue of a personal lack of reliance on the gospel in his or her own life? Being Christians, we already have the gospel, we would not claim ourselves believers otherwise, but many have misused it. Though I am undoubtedly wretched and sinful, I have full assurance in the gospel. I take his message more as "live what you claim to believe" not because of the fruit issue but because I am betting my eternal soul and the souls of my wife and children on being saved sola fide. That's one heck of a motivator to be grounded in the Word. This may be a case where Washer is "majoring on the minors" simply because so few of us hear the minors that he could preach 10 lifetimes and still not reach all those who need to hear that particular message.

I think that is also why I take his message to heart so completely. It is out of gratitude for His blood that we follow His commandments, no other reason. That I betray that gratitude for the sake of my convenience or for the sake of the world's opinion is, to me, unthinkable in retrospect and makes me ill.

I would have to agree that from what I've heard so far, he may not be a 360-degree preacher (per sermon), but he's at least a 270-degree guy, and he has a message which needs to be heard. He also has series on biblical assurance, faith, and true gospel, etc. I think these few particular sermons are usually taken as embodying his whole message because they're the most shocking. That being said, I haven't listened to his whole portfolio of sermons but I find it hard to believe that he preaches anything but gospel out in the jungle.
 
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Bobbi, one thing about the 'prophet' issue: I know a gentleman who is one of the most devout men I have ever met (and reformed to the teeth). He is a model father, and his children are a testimony to his devotion to the Lord. He feels called to speak as a prophet. He feels called to speak as God leads him BUT he fears the world of men and what following God's will for his life would do to his family. To see a giant of faith (and he is indeed one of the modern pilgrims) held back in this manner is heartbreaking but I see nothing wrong in his use of the word. Does it mean that he truly sees himself as a pipeline for God's words (new revelations and the like)? No, not at all. It is to preach the same Bible as everyone else but to perhaps focus on a particular message, to concentrate where God would have him, to serve as a member of the body of Christ in a unique capacity. I would tend to think that Washer is called in a similar way. I do think that Rich had a point with him rounding out his sermons instead of leaving folks hanging but he is, I think, serving his purpose.
 
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here but I'm really concerned about Washer's overarching theology. It sounded very revivalistic to me in the final analysis and I wonder if his "old theology" here is a form of Wesleyan perfectionism. I heard a great presentation of the Law as condemning men in their sins but this was essentially the bottom line:

"You want to know how to honor your parents, read the Word and obey it...want to learn how to honor God, read the Word and obey it. Do you want to know if you really believed in God - you'll know by whether you continue in these things." Where was the finished work of Christ? Where was the imputation of his righteousness? Did He die so that we could believe in Him and prove that we believe in Him by behaving perfectly?

While I do not deny the transforming work of a regenerate heart, I again see a disturbing presentation of self-examination that is easily construed as perfectionism.

The Law is not the Gospel - it condemns men in their sins but gives them no power to obey it.

I heard Law pronounced loud and clear. I heard the Gospel turned into the Law - "When you really obey then you've believed."

I think we are so used to the horrible Gospel messages of flattering words from preachers that it's easy to miss Washer as tacking in the opposite direction. His criticism of Christian decadence is laudatory but then he misses the true Gospel solution. I want to commend him for presenting the Holiness of God in all its terrible fearfulness. I also believe Christians should have his zeal. I just feel that he does not fully present the solution.
 
Rich, I'd love to argue that point but at this time, I really can't. I have to look at more of his stuff and see if there is a more rounded approach in other sermons.

You've got a point regarding these two sermons that I just can't rebut effectively; he does give the idea that if you don't obey, you don't believe. I do believe there's a deeper, less Pharasetical ideal in there, but I can see it being a little tough to discern. And I think that part of the message is that we have the solution, we need only see it for what it is. If we did not have the Gospel, we wouldn't be sitting there in the first place. But we don't see it in its fullness (though I can see the perspective that he is not presenting it in its fullness either.)
 
SemperFideles;


I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here but I'm really concerned about Washer's overarching theology.
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Not raining on my parade :D

I know whom I have believed in...


There are unfortunately, many pastors who do the same...fall short of teaching the Gospel.
 
I think that part of the message is that we have the solution, we need only see it for what it is. If we did not have the Gospel, we wouldn't be sitting there in the first place. But we don't see it in its fullness
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I think that pretty much nails it.
 
These two most popular sermons are directed toward Christians. In the first sermon he does send an "invitation" to people who want to be Christians, then he will give them the gospel one-on-one it seems.

As you can see here http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...urrSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Paul^Washer

his most recent sermons on sermonaudio.com are No Greater Truth (than the Gospel) part 1 and part 2.

I think it is nothing other than a hasty generalization to conclude that all of his sermons have the same emphasis based on two popular sermons directed at *already* professing Christians in America.
 
caleb_woodrow said:
These two most popular sermons are directed toward Christians. In the first sermon he does send an "invitation" to people who want to be Christians, then he will give them the gospel one-on-one it seems.

As you can see here http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...urrSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Paul^Washer

his most recent sermons on sermonaudio.com are No Greater Truth (than the Gospel) part 1 and part 2.

I think it is nothing other than a hasty generalization to conclude that all of his sermons have the same emphasis based on two popular sermons directed at *already* professing Christians in America.
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No, Paul Washer even assumes that he is speaking to mostly non-converted people that presume they are Christians while he states repeatedly that he believes a vast majority of them are likely going to hell. I would agree with him on the state of Evangelicalism.

Further, a minister of the Gospel is never supposed to make people "read between the lines" as to what the message of the Gospel is. Yes it is "...flee from the wrath to come..." but it is also "...rest in Christ...." What folks are doing here is "filling in the blanks" of their own understanding of the Gospel. While I might be able to hear it and search for kernels of trusting in Christ it is buried deep down with an overt sense of perfectionism. Paul never makes that mistake in his Epistles.

Third, even if you believe he is preaching to the already converted, the Gospel is not simply for unregenerate and then you preach the Law to everybody who already "...gets it." Yes the Law needs to be preached to convict of sin but the Gospel is for believers too. He's talking to kids impoverished of the Gospel. In fact, his "type" of sermon is very common in the SBC - do this, this, this, this, and this more perfectly. The twist he adds is scaring them more to desire to be more committed. The message is still impotent of power because it does not hold forth Christ.

Fourth, I didn't claim he never gets the Gospel right but that presentation was reminiscent of what I said it was. It's the exact kind of thing Wesley was doing: railing against a decadent Church (good) and then calling men to perfectionism (bad). As I stated earlier, I want to be fair to the man and commend him where he is solid in terms of upholding the Holiness of God but I still believe he misses the Gospel in his remedy. I simply cannot chalk it up to "...well he might be different other times..." when he has this opportunity to present it clearly to 5000 kids and this particular sermon is floating around the Internet as an example of "...gettting the Gospel right."
 
I didn’t put *professing* in front of Christians at the beginning of my post, but I did near the end. I should have included it in the beginning as well. My point is that these 2 sermons were directed to professing Christians.

First off, Paul Washer said repeatedly from what I remember that he thinks legalism is death and he is not promoting legalism.

Secondly, I should have made myself more clear that he is preaching toward *professing* Christians. I can understand how my post was semi-unclear, but after this post it should be clear.

Thirdly, I never said that the Gospel was only for the unregenerate. I emphasized that it does not have to take place in every sermon, especially one that is directed toward professing Christians.

Fourth, like I have said before, it is a hasty generalization to conclude that all of Paul Washer sermons are set forth in the same manner as two popular ones that have been spread over the internet directed at a specific problem.

Fifth, he did send out an invitation at the youth conference implying he would give the gospel personally to those who expressed interest or need.

Sixth, perhaps listen to some of his other sermons on the gospel to get a better idea of how he uses it in different settings.
 
As I said three times now Caleb, I have a problem with the presentation but never claim that all of Paul Washer's sermons are like that. As far as it went, it was presented as "Flee the wrath to come..." (good) followed by "Look to your works to see if you really believe...."

There is truth to what he says but such passages of "looking to our fruits" are always taught on a knife's edge in Scripture. They are presented with the full force of not deceiving ourselves but always followed up with the faithfulness of God to work and will in us. Romans 6 is followed by Romans 7. Romans 7 is followed by Romans 8.

I believe, firmly, that after you scare people to death with their sin (praise God) you need to remind the believer not to trust in his own strength to accomplish it. When that balance is overlooked it leads to a mixed message.

Once again, he is preaching to a group fully ensconced in "do this and you shall live". It is the Southern Baptist way of preaching. Moralism is normal. It is the devastation and ugliness of sin that is not. In that he underlines God's Holiness I reiterate that I say Amen. That he can be very easily confused as preaching more "do this and live" to a denomination full of that stuff then I think it's dangerous stuff.

And you don't wait until after the sermon to present the Gospel to the people who "came forward".
 
SemperFideles said:
I believe, firmly, that after you scare people to death with their sin (praise God) you need to remind the believer not to trust in his own strength to accomplish it. When that balance is overlooked it leads to a mixed message.
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I agree and would further add that his message could be easily confused, especially when one is already prone to legalism. Yet, I think when the sermon is understood correctly it is all and well. Could he have done some things better? Yes, but I don't think it warrants too many criticisms. :handshake: Sorry if I set up a strawman.
 
SemperFideles said:
As I said three times now Caleb, I have a problem with the presentation but never claim that all of Paul Washer's sermons are like that. As far as it went, it was presented as "Flee the wrath to come..." (good) followed by "Look to your works to see if you really believe...."

There is truth to what he says but such passages of "looking to our fruits" are always taught on a knife's edge in Scripture. They are presented with the full force of not deceiving ourselves but always followed up with the faithfulness of God to work and will in us. Romans 6 is followed by Romans 7. Romans 7 is followed by Romans 8.

I believe, firmly, that after you scare people to death with their sin (praise God) you need to remind the believer not to trust in his own strength to accomplish it. When that balance is overlooked it leads to a mixed message.

Once again, he is preaching to a group fully ensconced in "do this and you shall live". It is the Southern Baptist way of preaching. Moralism is normal. It is the devastation and ugliness of sin that is not. In that he underlines God's Holiness I reiterate that I say Amen. That he can be very easily confused as preaching more "do this and live" to a denomination full of that stuff then I think it's dangerous stuff.

And you don't wait until after the sermon to present the Gospel to the people who "came forward".
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It is true Rich that we should not trust in our own strength to do it. It is also true that God gives us the strength and sanctifies us. As Rev. Washer says if you stray off the path God will come for you and put you back on the path. A new creation is no small change and Christ who begins the work will perfect it. This all Rev. Washer is saying. The modern church is full of carnal Christians who need a little fear of the Lord because they have none and it keeps them stagnant or deluded into thinking they are a Christian when they are not.
 
Paul Washer is a GREAT Preacher !! I first heard him when Way of the Master Radio airred one of his sermons on sattellite radio. Awesome stuff.
 
Well, I was hoping to get some conversation on this, and I still may, but until then I guess I'll just add to it here or there.
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I'm quite the fan of his.

He touches on a point in one of his sermons that I have only heard mentioned once before, but had long ago been quite convinced of based on observing society - lost people dersperately try to create 'heaven on earth'. Look at our government, look at the charities of hollywood celebrities.....

It's like people who reject God try to fix things themselves, and when they utterly fail, they just try harder.
 
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