Barnpreacher
Puritan Board Junior
I wanted to start a new thread on this topic. I took this quote of JDWiseman's from the thread "Can a Christian be demon possessed?" I think this is a tremendously well thought out post that I agree with completely. But I do have some questions that I would like to bring up.
What about those that have been helped by pills? Does that mean that they were not being oppressed by Satan? What caused the pills to help them? Certainly pills cannot replace the power of God's word at work, so how do these pills actually help some people?
I also understand that doctors like to hand these pills out like candy today, and I am not encouraging that. But if chemical imbalances are real, then are we being fair to Christians making them feel guilty for trying to let these pills help them? When we get headaches, what do we do? We pop tylenol or aleve. What's the difference?
I've been back and forth on this issue for many years. Sometimes I think one should stay completely away from these pills, but then yet I have seen these pills help some people close to me. Now granted, I would never encourage that person to put their hope and trust in a pill over God. But if we're not careful we could be doing the same thing when we take an aspirin, or high blood pressure medicine, or get a flu shot etc.
Thoughts?
In my opinion this is a very intricate topic, and one that needs to be handled carefully. To be frank and blunt, I think there are two extremes that need to be avoided:
1) Those who were saved out of a background laden with the occult, or any other regenerate person (regardless of their background) who has had unusual attacks or harassments from demonic entities, can, in my opinion, allow their experiences to puff them up; they can act as if they have the "real insight", a real "gnosis" that others don't have, and that others "simply can't understand".
2) Those who, in reacting to the excesses of deliverance ministries and forms of the charismatic movement, overreact in their teaching, and make demons and demonic attacks to be things of the past; in my opinion, the common cultural assumptions of the "modern" world, and the richness of the LORD's blessing that have kept America largely free from overt demonic activity, form more of the backbone of their view than does Scripture.
And, at the end of the day, that distinction parallels C.S. Lewis' comment about the two equal and opposite errors of demonology that the human race can fall into, that is, either an undue fascination, or outright (or, in our circles, practical) disbelief.
Mr. Vigneault said:
Quote:
We need to avoid what John Frame calls 'reformed deism' where we avoid the pentecostals obsession so entirely that we have nothing to offer those who have been afflicted.
I think the above point is absolutely critical. I can only say that my heart breaks for those who have known the lashes of the devil, and the fangs of Satan, and the lunacy that he can throw a mind into, going to a church, which is supposed to be a bastion of light, the pillar and ground of truth, and being told to take pills, or that they only have a medical condition.
There have been times in my past, right before I became a Christian, and in the first couple of years after, where I would hear that, and my spirit would just break and wither within me. Because often when a person is being assaulted, they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that something supernatural is going on, and for someone to suggest pills is laughable.
The church should be the voice to say, "We have known about this all along; these enemies are thousands of years old. They are liars, and they are deceptive. They come only to kill, and steal, and destroy."
I suppose I don't know how to say it any better. Only, that, in my opinion, as society falls further and further away from the Godspell and the Word of the Lord, you're going to start seeing more and more poor souls who have been raped, pillaged, and driven to lunacy by the Devil and his dark spirits come to the church, and when that happens, I hope and pray that they are met with understanding, and not told they are crazy, or have a serotonin imbalance.
C.S. Lewis, in The Screwtape Letters, has a demon staying that their current strategy is to hide themselves. I realize that is just his guess, and he is simply an author. But once again, in the realm of my opinion, that's a fairly adequate diagnosis of the West. No one is ever seduced, swindled, abducted, or raped by criminals broadcasting their intention.
I think postmodernism, and higher criticism, and the denial of Christianity, and the lauding of man's mind, and man's capability, and man's progress, are just one large swindle. Blasphemy after blasphemy is piled upon the God of Scripture, middle finger after middle finger is given to Him by this nation and the West, and, speaking anthropomorphically, He gives us a chance for His goodness to lead us to repentance. He draws us with the cords of a man, and bands of love, to Himself, and shows us that He does not deal with us after our iniquities, or as our sins deserve.
I imagine, once again, in my opinion, if revival does not take hold, after we have allowed homosexuality, and the slaughter of children, and Wicca, and Asatru, and the New Age movement, and all of this blatantly Satanic and neo-pagan garbage to flourish, that parts of our nation may very well be introduced to the real nature of the "new friends" they have been courting. And when that happens, and the masks come off, I am guessing you will have many ripped open souls fleeing covens and kindreds and the darkness with some very odd stories, and I hope they are met with the Grand Story of the Lord of Light and His Cross.
All of that being said, and I've said too much, and what I have said is too fragmented... but here's where I would differ from the charismatics and the deliverance ministry folks.
The "answer", in my opinion, is basically the same as those who hold a more conservative view: Preach the Gospel. Administer the Sacraments. Bring them into the community. Nurture them with the milk of the Word.
Most of this discussion does rest on the nature and meaning of "possession", and I would agree that no believer can be utterly controlled and indwelt. But I do think they can be attacked, harassed, frightened, and have thoughts and feelings put into their minds and hearts. However, "whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world", and the One who dwells in us is greater than the One who dwells in the world.
And the preaching and teaching of the Word will overthrow the most entrenched kingdom of Satan in any human mind. Literally. It can take minds lost in the lands of lunacy and, like the Gadarene demoniac, clothe them, place them in their "right mind", and sit them down at the feet of Jesus.
And this is where the rubber meets the road. And the church should be able to tell new believers who sorrow over their sins, and are harassed by darkness, and the adversaries, in ways that maybe those who were raised in the covenant community can't understand, that there is "another side to the story", indeed, the Author of the Story, and that Jesus is not just a name on paper, but that when it comes to setting souls free, and rescuing minds from lunacy, and breaking the very back of the strongest devil and banishing it from that person's life with regal authority, that this Jesus, this God, comes through in spades.
Please don't throw pills at them.
I know that gets into a larger debate, and I'm not saying that there aren't actual mental illnesses. I think Scripture distinguishes between mental illness and demonic possession (e.g., I think the list in Matthew 4 (without a Bible near me) mentions "lunacy" as something different from those possessed with unclean spirits; Nebuchadnezzar speaks of his "wisdom and understanding" returning to him; and the Gadarene demoniac is restored to his "right mind"); and I don't pretend to know where the line is drawn; but I do believe there are some demonized people that, in some Reformed churches, would be given Prozac as an answer.
What about those that have been helped by pills? Does that mean that they were not being oppressed by Satan? What caused the pills to help them? Certainly pills cannot replace the power of God's word at work, so how do these pills actually help some people?
I also understand that doctors like to hand these pills out like candy today, and I am not encouraging that. But if chemical imbalances are real, then are we being fair to Christians making them feel guilty for trying to let these pills help them? When we get headaches, what do we do? We pop tylenol or aleve. What's the difference?
I've been back and forth on this issue for many years. Sometimes I think one should stay completely away from these pills, but then yet I have seen these pills help some people close to me. Now granted, I would never encourage that person to put their hope and trust in a pill over God. But if we're not careful we could be doing the same thing when we take an aspirin, or high blood pressure medicine, or get a flu shot etc.
Thoughts?