Baptist Ecclesiology

[Puritan Sailor]

Just a quick question.

What's the difference between the elder and the deacon in the Baptist perspective? I've been to churches where a deacon is teaching. So it just made me wonder.

 

[Dan....]

Patrick,

Deacons oversee the physical needs of the congregation, whereas elders oversee the spiritual needs of the congregation.

That does not mean that only elders can teach, but that the teaching is their responsibility and hence any teacher is under their authority.

[quote:8a44259e92]
LBC1689 XXVI:xi

Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.
[/quote:8a44259e92]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

SO then who are these "others also gifted and fitted?" Would you classify them as deacons? Or just anyone in the church teaching under the authority of the elders? And what do they mean here by "bishop"? Do baptists have bishops? Or are they just using that synonymously with elder?

 

[Dan....]

[quote:3d41cee99f]
SO then who are these "others also gifted and fitted?"
[/quote:3d41cee99f]

Any adult male in the church whom the elders have approved (so long as they be fit for the task), and yes, this should be under the authority and supervision of the elders.

[quote:3d41cee99f]
Would you classify them as deacons?
[/quote:3d41cee99f]

No (unless of course, they have been appointed to said office).

[quote:3d41cee99f]
And what do they mean here by "bishop"? Do baptists have bishops? Or are they just using that synonymously with elder?
[/quote:3d41cee99f]

To my knowledge, the LBC uses "bishop", "elder" and "pastor" interchangibly.

[Edited on 6-30-2004 by Dan....]

 

[pastorway]

to Dan....

 

[smhbbag]

I'm glad to see a distinct difference understood between [i:3a33c7642d]real[/i:3a33c7642d] baptist ecclesiology and that of the vast majority of southern baptist churches today.

[Edited on 6-30-2004 by smhbbag]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:3921452f0f][i:3921452f0f]Originally posted by smhbbag[/i:3921452f0f]
I'm glad to see a distinct difference understood between [i:3921452f0f]real[/i:3921452f0f] baptist ecclesiology and that of the vast majority of southern baptist churches today.

[Edited on 6-30-2004 by smhbbag] [/quote:3921452f0f]
So is there a differnce between how the SBC divides there offices compared to the ARBC or FIRE?

 

[sundoulos]

Our church would follow the LBC in this area (we are not a Reformed church). As far as I can determine, most SBC churches would equate elders, bishops, and pastors. Deacons sometimes squeeze into the Ruling Elder position, but they are not recognized in any way as elders.

 

[smhbbag]

^at every SBC church I've been to (other than my current, beautifully Reformed and faithful local body =) ), this is how it's been:

there is no such thing as a deacon.
there is a body of elders, but we call them deacons.
these elders have no authority, and aren't specifically called or expected to teach - only there for budget decisions and supervising use of the facilities.
the 'pastor' does everything. he is expected to be a part of everything, be ultimately reponsible for everything personally, and after much less than 5 years gets burned out and runs away from the pastorate.
basically, a 1-man dictatorship with a puppet government of so-called deacons who don't teach or preach or lead, and are not expected to.

This, in my experience, has not been a failure due to the sinfulness of the individual deacons/pastors....but because the model is fundamentally flawed.

 

[panicbird]

I think Jeremy got it.

Most SBC churches do not have elders. They have deacons, who in some churches function as elders, at least in terms of giving the church direction and such (although there is rarely any spiritual oversight). Oftentimes, however, it falls to the pastor and the pastor alone to do everything.

This is one area that breaks my heart for my SBC brethren.

Lon

 

[pastorway]

In the SBC churches I pastored (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away), the deacons made all the decisions and while I did "everything" I had absolutely no authority at all. It was really like I was a Church of Christ minister! I was expected to preach, do all the evangelism and visiting, and be a good example to the church and the community - but I could not even change the letters on the church sign without approval from the sign committee!

In many SBC churches, the deacons (or their wives) are really serving as elders. In a few, there is a true plurality of elders that rule the church, but this is the exception and not the rule.

Phillip

 

[Puritan Sailor]

So then is there any difference from this SBC form in the ARBC or FIRE?

[Edited on 7-1-2004 by puritansailor]

 

[pastorway]

ARBCA and FIRE are both associations of churches that have plurality elder rule leadership.

FIRE refers to the 1646 and 1689 Baptist Confessions, but does not require strict adherence. Here is a quote from the FIRE confession of faith on the church:

[quote:56c9243109]We believe that the local church is under the authority of Christ alone. Nevertheless, He has appointed men to be elders (undershepherds) to represent Him as they care for His body. Deacons also serve Christ as His ministers of mercy. Furthermore, the communion of saints requires the recognition of and fellowship with other local evangelical churches.

http://www.firefellowship.org/confession.htm[/quote:56c9243109]

And ARBCA requires strict adherence to the 1689.

[quote:56c9243109][i:56c9243109]1689 on the Church[/i:56c9243109]
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

To each of these churches thus gathered, according to his mind declared in his word, he hath given all that power and authority, which is in any way needful for their carrying on that order in worship and discipline, which he hath instituted for them to observe; with commands and rules for the due and right exerting, and executing of that power.

A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church (so called and gathered), for the peculiar administration of ordinances, and execution of power or duty, which he intrusts them with, or calls them to, to be continued to the end of the world, are bishops or elders, and deacons. [/quote:56c9243109]

Some SBC churches have adopted elder rule, but they are far and few between.

Phillip

 

[fredtgreco]

Phillips post goes along very well with Jeremy's. My experience with general baptist polity (i.e. non-Reformed baptist churches like SBC, GARB, ABC, etc) is that the pastor is a complete dictator, doing everything, with the exception that he has no control (or little) over the budget, and can be fired at any time if the deacons or deacons' wives desire it.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

So, to change the subject slightly...

How do local congregations resolve conflicts? In a Presbyterian system, if a local congregation can't resolve a conflict, it moves up to the presbytery and then the GA for resolution. How does the baptist system address the issue of solving conflicts in a congregation which can't be solved at the local level?

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:7dabaeaeaa][i:7dabaeaeaa]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:7dabaeaeaa]
So, to change the subject slightly...

How do local congregations resolve conflicts? In a Presbyterian system, if a local congregation can't resolve a conflict, it moves up to the presbytery and then the GA for resolution. How does the baptist system address the issue of solving conflicts in a congregation which can't be solved at the local level? [/quote:7dabaeaeaa]

Whoever gets 51 out of 100 votes wins. Often a severe conflict causes a church split. Most often the severe conflicts are over the pastor, and there is a vote to decide, in essence, whether the pastor is fired, or the "anti-pastor" contingent gets shown the door.

 

[blhowes]

[b:6d29dd7bcd]Patrick wrote:[/b:6d29dd7bcd]
How do local congregations resolve conflicts? In a Presbyterian system, if a local congregation can't resolve a conflict, it moves up to the presbytery and then the GA for resolution. How does the baptist system address the issue of solving conflicts in a congregation which can't be solved at the local level?

Half-way kidding, but "church split".

Actually, in my experiences, there was never a problem resolving conflicts at the local level because major decisions were made by majority vote. How people deal with the majority vote usually wasn't a problem as long as everybody was on "praying ground", which usually was the case.

Bob

 

[panicbird]

Re: resolution of conflict

I suppose it is different for different churches, but I know in the SBC there is often a conflict resolution committee that will come in and help those churches that in are particularly difficult straits. My only experience with them is second-hand. From what I saw with the church that used the conflict resolution committee, it is a farce. Of course, that may have (and probably does have) more to do with the church than the committee.

It may be that the SBC is different than other Baptist groups/churches in this regard. Though every SBC church is ultimately autonomous, there is often a fair amount of cooperation and communication between churches in an association. For those of you who do not know, SBC churches are members of a local association of churches. The churches in the associations work together on a variety of things.

Lon

 

[cupotea]

[quote:efa2953089][i:efa2953089]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:efa2953089]
[b:efa2953089]Patrick wrote:[/b:efa2953089]
How do local congregations resolve conflicts? In a Presbyterian system, if a local congregation can't resolve a conflict, it moves up to the presbytery and then the GA for resolution. How does the baptist system address the issue of solving conflicts in a congregation which can't be solved at the local level?

Half-way kidding, but "church split".

Actually, in my experiences, there was never a problem resolving conflicts at the local level because major decisions were made by majority vote. How people deal with the majority vote usually wasn't a problem as long as everybody was on "praying ground", which usually was the case.

Bob [/quote:efa2953089]

Usually when a business meeting is announced prior, those who are in favor show up and vote, those who oppose stay home and gripe later.

 

[smhbbag]

^haha, also very true.


well, I guess that's not funny

 

[panicbird]

Brent, that is so often (and so unfortunately) true.

Let it be said, however, that not all SBC churches are this way. I do not wish to sweep under the rug that a great many of them are, but, to be fair to my brethren, I must point out that many of them are glorious examples of graciousness and devotion to God. My own church, for example, is a wonderful, elder-led congregation with a godly pastor who preaches the word with what the Puritans called "unction." Not nearly as many Baptist churches are as I would desire, but such is the work of reformation.

Lon

 

[Philip A]

[quote:7a8396b385][i:7a8396b385]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:7a8396b385]
So, to change the subject slightly...

How do local congregations resolve conflicts? .... How does the baptist system address the issue of solving conflicts in a congregation which can't be solved at the local level? [/quote:7a8396b385]

Here is the way a confessional Reformed Baptist church would handle it:

[quote:7a8396b385]
[b:7a8396b385]2LBCF 1689 26:15[/b:7a8396b385]
In cases of difficulties or differences, either in point of doctrine or administration, wherein either the churches in general are concerned, or any one church, in their peace, union, and edification; or any member or members of any church are injured, in or by any proceedings in censures not agreeable to truth and order: it is according to the mind of Christ, that many churches holding communion together, do, by their messengers, meet to consider, and give their advice in or about that matter in difference, to be reported to all the churches concerned; howbeit these messengers assembled, are not intrusted with any church-power properly so called; or with any jurisdiction over the churches themselves, to exercise any censures either over any churches or persons; or to impose their determination on the churches or officers.[/quote:7a8396b385]

As an example of practice, if our church for instance were to have difficulty, we would seek the elders of the (likely two) nearest confessional Reformed Baptist church(es). In our case, it would be Palmdale and Riverside.

Additionally, our constitution has a provision, based on this and other confessional principles, that if the church ever finds itself without eldership, that the deacons will put the church under the direct oversight of a like minded confessional sister church. When we were in the planting process, we were 100% under the authority of the Palmdale Reformed Baptist Church. Once we constituted and installed our first elder, we were then independent.

 

[SteelYankee]

New Book out on this subject

Have you seen this new book? It is called "Perspectives on Church Govt: Five Views on Church Polity."

James White wrote on "plurality of elders" and Danny Akin (new Prez at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary) wrote on "single-pastor rule" and Robert Reymond wrote of "Presbyterian model" and I can't remember the other two. In all, five persepctives on church government.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:327efb1f90="Philip A"][quote:327efb1f90]
[b:327efb1f90]2LBCF 1689 26:15[/b:327efb1f90]
In cases of difficulties or differences, either in point of doctrine or administration, wherein either the churches in general are concerned, or any one church, in their peace, union, and edification; or any member or members of any church are injured, in or by any proceedings in censures not agreeable to truth and order: it is according to the mind of Christ, that many churches holding communion together, do, by their messengers, meet to consider, and give their advice in or about that matter in difference, to be reported to all the churches concerned; howbeit these messengers assembled, are not intrusted with any church-power properly so called; or with any jurisdiction over the churches themselves, to exercise any censures either over any churches or persons; or to impose their determination on the churches or officers.[/quote:327efb1f90]

As an example of practice, if our church for instance were to have difficulty, we would seek the elders of the (likely two) nearest confessional Reformed Baptist church(es). In our case, it would be Palmdale and Riverside.

Additionally, our constitution has a provision, based on this and other confessional principles, that if the church ever finds itself without eldership, that the deacons will put the church under the direct oversight of a like minded confessional sister church. When we were in the planting process, we were 100% under the authority of the Palmdale Reformed Baptist Church. Once we constituted and installed our first elder, we were then independent.[/quote:327efb1f90]
Ok, but the LBC says this at the end of the paragraph that the appointed comittee for this conflict resolution has no church authority or power over teh congregation or the office bearers in question. So, it looks like all they can do is make a recommendation, correct? It's still up to the individual congregation in turmoil to choose whether to accept the recommendation or not. If it were an intense conflict would a committee ever recommend a church split? Just curious.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Anyone??? I know there are some very informed Baptists out there.