Biblical Marriage

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally posted by TimV
"As for your suggestion that God might "command" incest in households"

Well, He did. He commanded Adam, Eve and their direct biological childred to have, bluntly, lots of sex. Although we don't know who paired of with whom, there can't be any getting around it. And it was good, at that time.
Chapter and verse, please. Please. From "be fruitful and multiply?" Please demonstrate. Show me your reasoning process.

Pairing was not, could not, be wily-nily. But it had to include brothers and sisters. Adultery=Incest at the time of our first parents. Adultery was a category that grew with every generation, every possibility of illicit relations. Incest was defined at that time as parent-child sexual relations. This I can demonstrate from Jesus' refutation of the Pharisees, Mt. 19:4-9. There, by appealing to Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 he proves that a proper marriage was always a two-person affair. So sex with mom or dad was always prohibited. Incest was prohibited from the beginning.

Over time, the gene pool becomes dilluted, close marriages would begin to show mental and physical deformities. Plain rationality doubtless played an early part in broadening human, civil, or custmary limitations on close marraiges. But God codifies and regulates marriage further in the Law of Moses, and places divine restrictions on close marriages. God broadens the definiton of incest. How can you say "God commanded incest" unless you have already prejudiced your definition to allow your conclusion?
Originally posted by TimV
"My reply: Murder is ending human life without due process or jurisdiction; execution is the result of due process; God has jurisdiction over all the nations; God judged the Canaanites guilty for their own sins, and ordered them to reap the consequences of their covenant relation to their fathers (Ex. 20:5); God deputized the Israelite army as his executioners of divine justice against guilty sinners (Deut. 9:4; Lev. 18:24-30; cf. Gen. 15:16); since execution isn't murder, the Israelites weren't guilty of murder."

God specifically denies the right anyone to punish the sins of the Fathers on the their children. He specifically reserves this right for Himself.
How exactly do you think I've denied this. Was the invasion of the land a consequence of sins of generations, as well as strictly being punishment for their own wickedness?
Originally posted by TimV
There is no instance in Scripture where God's people are ordered to break this law other than in the conquest. It was a specific case where God ordered something normally sinful. Just as the modern Israeli army is bulldozing down houses of parents of suicide bombers, it is illegal under Biblical law to kill a guy wife and 2 month old baby girl and their pet goat. There are no cirucumstances that allow this in Scripture. It is murder, pure and simple, and has typically been seen as such among Christians, such as in the teaching of Just War.
Again, this is only accurate if you agree that the Israelites were "breaking a law." But (and you yourself said this in an earlier post!) all killing is not murder, else magistrates are committing judicial murder in every case of capital punishment. How have you addressed even a single proposition of my extended sylogism that you quote above?

Originally posted by TimV
Another example is in 1 Kings chapter 20:

35"Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his neighbor by the word of the LORD, "Strike me, please." And the man refused to strike him. 36Then he said to him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, surely, as soon as you depart from me, a lion shall kill you." And as soon as he left him, a lion found him and killed him. "

This was clearly against the Law of God, but in this case it was good. Why? Because God said it was good. And it's the same for the one off command to kill babies.
Finally, TimV, a scripture text. Thank you.

Yes. Ordinarily an unprovoked attack on anyone is a terrible sin against the 6th commandment (6C). And by the prophet God did command this individual to strike the prophet. My argument is that this incident doesn't oppose the 6C, because
1) It doesn't fit the defintion of an unprovoked attack. God ordered this wounding because it was condusive to his moral or righteous will and purpose. God has the power of life and death over every man, and if he deputizes a person to act as his minister, that person is duty bound to obey.
2) The matter of intent is not present. The wounding was not malicious. Jesus plainly shows that sin against the 6C begins in the heart. Mt. 5:21-22. This is no less reflected in the Law in the distinguishing made between manslaughter and murder (Ex. 21:12-13).

Therefore, I reject the idea that this event constitutes a true "exception" to the 6C. But, what if we could find one true exception to the 6C in the whole Bible--one event not explainable on any other ground. What would this prove? It would establish no such general principle such that God has no self-constraints, that he can for example be both a covenant-keeper (2 Tim. 2:13) and a covenant-breaker. In fact it would prove nothing at all (assuming we were interpretively correct) except that God made that particular exception, and not even that God makes other exceptions; because arguing from a particular instance to a general rule (induction) is fallacious. The best inductions, based on many examples, at best give us strong probabilities, or even rational presumptions--but never certainty.
 
Why do I feel like laboring over these issues that have come up in this thread? Because the issues are deeper than a "yes" or "no" answer to whether or not a Christian should marry an unbelieving girl he knocked up. More than whether he should assist his child and its mother, and what kind of support and fatherhood he owes them.

It is because I think the moral implications of God's nature impact our hermeneutics. Because we need to know as Christians, that our God is not like the arbitrary absolute god of Isalm; that he's not capricious, unreliable, inconsistent, illogical, or inscrutable like other false gods. It is because we have got to really, finally, and consistently fight to subject our thinking in every way to the coherent and perfect Word of God, and his wisdom.

God help me, I want to be corrected by the Bible where I need correcting. Please, don't any of you think that my intransigence on this thread is evidence of a blind dogmatism. My conscience is captive to the Word of God. But unless I am persuaded by the testimony of Scripture and plain reason, I have to take a stand for what I think is the truth presented in it.
 
"Please, don't any of you think that my intransigence on this thread is evidence of a blind dogmatism"

Iron sharpens iron, and unless I miss my guess, this is one of the reasons for forum like this. But there comes a point where one must agree to disagree, and as I'm the newbie, this post will be it.

"It is because I think the moral implications of God's nature impact our hermeneutics. Because we need to know as Christians, that our God is not like the arbitrary absolute god of Isalm; that he's not capricious, unreliable, inconsistent, illogical, or inscrutable like other false gods. It is because we have got to really, finally, and consistently fight to subject our thinking in every way to the coherent and perfect Word of God, and his wisdom."

This is a classic case of setting up a straw man and destroying it.

"How can you say "God commanded incest" unless you have already prejudiced your definition to allow your conclusion?"

I'll try once more. By the moral standards of God, today what went on in Adam and Eve's family (and what you say is pure conjecture, but even under those conditions) was BAD. But then it was GOOD.

I in no way, shape for form said that "God commanded incest". I said the definition of incest is ONLY WHAT GOD SAYS IT IS, and not absolute. In this case, as with the genocide cited, it is moral, and temporary, rather than metaphysical.
 
I'm through too. Let other readers judge our comments.

Tim, I deliberately disassociated the things I said in the last post from the longer one above it as a general broadcast to all readers, not directed at you personally. So, there's no straw man, no attacks in it. Just me justifying myself and my many, many words.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top