Celebration of Easter and Christmas?

[DonP]

Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.

I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.

Amen brother. Maybe we should start a new strict subscription denom that holds to the Sum of Saving Knowledge and the Dir for Pub and Private worship

Spo why did the ARP drop it do you know NaphtaliPress

 

[Honor]

I respectfully disagree but I will bow out now...

 

[DonP]

I respectfully disagree but I will bow out now...

Does your church and pastor still celebrate the OT feasts?

Keep studying we are all still learning and growing, that's why its good to be here and ask questions

 

[ww]

Daniel,

Those things mentioned are circumstances of Worship I would agree. By your church's acknowledgement of any other day than the Lord's Day based on the definition of the RPW found in WCF 20:1 the case could be made it is out of accord with it. However as you stated there are different variations of the RPW these days and as a result it causes confusion among folks even in the same denomination who move or want to worship in another Church of the same denomination. But that's another topic. In any event after reading your bio that would be non-issue for you.

Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on WCF 20:5 where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as ordinary elements of worship.

.

I disagree with the 1st paragraph. Like the 2nd

I would say there are not differing views of the RP. The RP is clear there are those who disagree with it and the church has failed to discipline them and tolerates them. This creates confusion

I knew you would and expected it.

 

[DonP]

I knew you would and expected it.

Does that mean we are like-minded?

 

[ww]

I knew you would and expected it.

Does that mean we are like-minded?

But of course!

 

[Marrow Man]

Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.

I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.

Chris, I didn't think the ARP ever adopted the Directory.

 

[Marrow Man]

That is a question above my pay-grade. I'll let Marrow Man answer that question.

I'm not sure I exactly understand the question Bill is posing. Bill, are you asking if entire churches celebrate Easter/Christmas and do they discipline members who refuse to take part? If that is the question, then the answer is no.

There are churches that make a big deal out of Christmas and Easter. I suspect that is true for most denominations. And the main ARP office doesn't help matters by publishing that stupid calendar, which not only has "Easter" and "Christmas", but is set up for liturgical colors and seasons.

The old ARP book of worship had allowances for certain seasons of the year. The new one says nothing about the matter. It is also much more forward in recognizing the RPW. I'm not sure some folks (who still celebrate liturgical seasons) have connected the dots of this. We had an interesting discussion in our Session meeting a couple of weeks ago on this matter. My elders were confused by the fact that the RPW says one thing and the denominational calendar promotes something else. And who can blame them for being confused when the office behaves unconfessionally.

If the Lord so wills it, before my time is done, I aim to make sure that liturgical calendar goes the way that Mr. Gillespie describes of the OT holy days in Chris' posts above -- that is, they will be dead and buried.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

That may be; had to reread my own article.

The Associate Reformed Presbyterian constitution contained the wording of the Westminster Directory appendix against “Festival days, commonly called holy-days” until 1975.95
​

95. Constitution of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (1799, 1908; 1955). Compare with The Book of Worship of the ARP Church, as Approved by the General Synod in 1975. [↩]
​

Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.

I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.

Chris, I didn't think the ARP ever adopted the Directory.

 

[Marrow Man]

That may be; had to reread my own article.

The Associate Reformed Presbyterian constitution contained the wording of the Westminster Directory appendix against “Festival days, commonly called holy-days” until 1975.95
​

95. Constitution of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (1799, 1908; 1955). Compare with The Book of Worship of the ARP Church, as Approved by the General Synod in 1975. [↩]​

Let me see if I can figure out what happened...

Somebody looks at the Book of Worship and figures out that it says something contrary to the way half the churches have been worshipping the past couple of decades. So, instead of actually reforming on the matter, they decide to edit it out of the BoW to conform it to the way things are currently being done. Because, you see, instead of looking to the Scriptures and our own standards, we've been looking at the mainline churches up and down the street and conducting our worship services based upon what the cesspools look like instead of the way we should be doing things.

Of course, I'm just speculating, but every once in a while I like a good excuse to go on a rant. ​

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

 

[Marrow Man]

In all fairness, I should point also point out that the ARP was headed down a very slippery slope of liberalism in the mid-1970s, which could have accounted for a lot. Thankfully, that ship was righted in the later part of that decade and the rest is history. And we do have a new Directory of Worship now (better than the old one).

Well, Benjamin, we may not have the Westminster Directory officially in our standards, but guess what I often consult when I need to plan some particular aspect of worship...

I'm sure some folks think in our denomination think it odd when I say, "According to the holy institution, command, and example of our Lord Jesus Christ, I take this bread/cup and I give it unto you" during the distribution of the elements of the Lord's Supper. But no one's bothered to ask me where I get that language. I'd be happy to tell them!

 

[NaphtaliPress]

BTW, I plug this every so often but I note there is a slew of ARP Standards at abebooks.com including some good deals on the first edition of 1799, perhaps the most handsome edition of Presbyterian standards done in the US. Sure; they age; but big print, big thick volume. By T&J Swords (see my article series on the Swords in The Confessional Presbyterian, v2-3). Skip the 1908 jobby; that's just a fog or something. But the 1799s, 1827s, 1832s, 1850s, some good deals. $85 or $95 for the 1799 is very good.

 

[PastorTim]

I've just listened to Dr McMahon's Wild Boar Radio podcasts on Christmas and Easter. I have a few questions.

What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?

Its interesting, I've always struggled with the idea of the incarnation and ressurection of Christ being embedded in a cultural practice which 1)came from paganism 2) was synchretized with Christianity 3) Has evolved into meaningless commercialism 4) Dominates the preaching schedule of the church in these dates. I have always hated this. Dont know why or how because it was before I read any puritam material. Perhaps it was just scriptural insight or Holy Spirit leading.

In regards to Christmas, in practice, I have grown to enjoy this sason as a time for enjoying Christ and family during the holidays. Is this wrong?

Easter has not been an issue, other than having to endure ressurection sermons embedded in secular mindset, as I havnt, until now had kids. (Just now he is too young to eat chocolate eggs anyway!).

So, how do you respond to these festivals?

I encourage you to read "A Christmas Discourse" here

 

[Herald]

That is a question above my pay-grade. I'll let Marrow Man answer that question.

I'm not sure I exactly understand the question Bill is posing. Bill, are you asking if entire churches celebrate Easter/Christmas and do they discipline members who refuse to take part? If that is the question, then the answer is no.

There are churches that make a big deal out of Christmas and Easter. I suspect that is true for most denominations. And the main ARP office doesn't help matters by publishing that stupid calendar, which not only has "Easter" and "Christmas", but is set up for liturgical colors and seasons.

The old ARP book of worship had allowances for certain seasons of the year. The new one says nothing about the matter. It is also much more forward in recognizing the RPW. I'm not sure some folks (who still celebrate liturgical seasons) have connected the dots of this. We had an interesting discussion in our Session meeting a couple of weeks ago on this matter. My elders were confused by the fact that the RPW says one thing and the denominational calendar promotes something else. And who can blame them for being confused when the office behaves unconfessionally.

If the Lord so wills it, before my time is done, I aim to make sure that liturgical calendar goes the way that Mr. Gillespie describes of the OT holy days in Chris' posts above -- that is, they will be dead and buried.

Tim,

My question was just the opposite. Are there churches who do not recognize Christmas and Easter, who discipline those members who do recognize those days?

It is my contention that the observance of those holidays is a personal conviction rather than an ecclesiastical one. But for the sake of argument, let's say one of your sessions considers the observance of Easter to be sinful. Is it a sin worthy of church discipline, or is it left up to the individual to decide?

 

[lshepler412]

I don't believe it matters what the pagan origins are. We are not celebrating it that way.

-----Added 4/2/2009 at 09:53:08 EST-----

I agree, skip the saints!

 

[Knoxienne]

I'll be honest and say that it irks me at church when we're going through a book of the Bible and we have to interrupt it to go through some text the pastor wants to use for Advent or Lent. The incarnation and the resurrection are to be celebrated every Sunday and meditated on constantly - not just during a certain time of year because of the Church Calendar.

That being said, I've heard church leaders who do not believe in the celebration of Christmas and Easter imply (if not state outright) that people should not have Christmas trees/decorations in their homes or participate in parties, gift exchanges, egg hunts, etc with family, friends and neighbors. That's leaving the realm of the Church's authority and interfering with families. That's going too far.

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

I have no problem with individuals and families privately celebrating a cultural and seasonal festival. That’s no different than having a March Madness Party. I’d only say, don’t do these things on the Lord’s Day.

The Puritan and Westminster Regulative Principle of Worship is clearly defined in the post Westminster literature. Circumstances and elements are clearly defined. Pleading some personal interpretation of the RPW does not conform to confessional subscription.

Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.

Certainly, it is the minister’s prerogative to pick the text of his sermon based upon particular pastoral needs. The Incarnation and Resurrection are commendable themes; both provide the background for all gospel preaching.

Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox.

As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.

If one is not following the Puritan Regulative Principle of Worship, don’t claim to subscribe to it. Find a different label for your principle and justify it from scripture.

 

[ww]

I have no problem with individuals and families privately celebrating a cultural and seasonal festival. That’s no different than having a March Madness Party. I’d only say, don’t do these things on the Lord’s Day.

The Puritan and Westminster Regulative Principle of Worship is clearly defined in the post Westminster literature. Circumstances and elements are clearly defined. Pleading some personal interpretation of the RPW does not conform to confessional subscription.

Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.

Certainly, it is the minister’s prerogative to pick the text of his sermon based upon particular pastoral needs. The Incarnation and Resurrection are commendable themes; both provide the background for all gospel preaching.

Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox.

As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.

If one is not following the Puritan Regulative Principle of Worship, don’t claim to subscribe to it. Find a different label for your principle and justify it from scripture.

Yeah what he said.

 

[Marrow Man]

Tim,

My question was just the opposite. Are there churches who do not recognize Christmas and Easter, who discipline those members who do recognize those days?

It is my contention that the observance of those holidays is a personal conviction rather than an ecclesiastical one. But for the sake of argument, let's say one of your sessions considers the observance of Easter to be sinful. Is it a sin worthy of church discipline, or is it left up to the individual to decide?

In the ARP, I have never known this to happen. It might or might not happen in other Presbyterian denominations. My guess is it would vary according to the "strictness" (for lack of a better term) of the Sessions in the various churches.

As far as the extent to which a Session might discipline a member, I would tend to agree with Glenn's comments above. In my mindset, a Christmas celebration is a cultural gathering that differs very little from, say, celebrating the Fourth of July. Either of those days, however, can be dragged into the church and "Christianized" and then it becomes a huge issue. And that's when Sessions need to step in and be faithful to Scripture and the Confession.

The other layer on this is that, as someone once commented on the PB, the ARP (because of past problems) tends to be more "broadly evangelical" in some of these matters than strictly Reformed. Many of our members are grossly ignorant of doctrines like the RPW. This was a shock to me at first because the church of which I was a member (prior to ordination) was an organized church plant of which the minister (a member of the PB!) held to the RPW and was very faithful to the WCF. That does not happen everywhere. The tide is turning in many places in the ARP, but those things do not happen overnight. I am reminded of the things mentioned in Chris' posts above, where the Apostle Paul observed things like Passover not because these were to be perpetuated, but because the old administration was passing away and these things were about to be dead and buried. Hopefully, the older "broader evangelical" ways are passing away, but these take time and patience.

I have tried the big stick approach and that does not always work well. A gentleman in our congregation used an interesting illustration with me last week. He buys tropical fish, and he mentioned that they are used to warmer water than is usually found in most aquariums. You can get them adjusted to the cooler temp, but you must do so gradually, or they will not survive. But soon they will become adjusted with a little time and patience.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.

James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?

Little is said about it. I believe it's left to conscience.

 

[Herald]

Tim, thank you.

Christmas has established some familial bonds in my family that go back centuries, mostly on my mother's side. As my own personal reformation has deepened, I am more and more distancing myself from the spiritual attachment to Christmas. The vestige of popery dies hard it seems. I preached on the incarnation last Christmas Eve. I will not do so again. I want to publicly thank a few brothers here who the Lord has used to change my mind; notably Josh, James Farley and Matthew Winzer. Thank you, brothers.

As far as the cultural aspect of the holiday; I'm not going to fall on my sword about presents, carols, a twinkling tree, egg nog and the Salvation Army bell ringers. If it brings the family together and creates goodwill, so be it. If I'm compelled into a moment of spiritual introspection, may it of the whole ministry of our Lord.

 

[Albatross]

Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.



Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God.

Would you mind defining "recognizing" and "acknowledging" and how those might be evidenced in the order of worship? While my church celebrates both Easter and Christmas around the predominant date there isn't an entry in the order of worship that delineates now is the time to practice Easter or Christmas.

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

Would you mind defining "recognizing" and "acknowledging" and how those might be evidenced in the order of worship? While my church celebrates both Easter and Christmas around the predominant date there isn't an entry in the order of worship that delineates now is the time to practice Easter or Christmas.

What do you mean by celebrate? I doubt churches had printed bulletins or order’s of worship at the time of the writing of the appendix to the Westminster Directory for the Public Worship of God.

Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.

Add to that seasonal decorations, trees, manger scenes, wreathes, Easter lilies, advent candles, any type of candle not for purpose of lighting, and we have a host of unwarranted trappings in the worship of God.

 

[Tripel]

Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.

I'm not trying to get off track here, but just looking for some clarification. I assume that you are against having a worship service emphasizing missions once a year or a reformation themed service at the end of each october, correct?

 

[Albatross]

Would you mind defining "recognizing" and "acknowledging" and how those might be evidenced in the order of worship? While my church celebrates both Easter and Christmas around the predominant date there isn't an entry in the order of worship that delineates now is the time to practice Easter or Christmas.

What do you mean by celebrate? I doubt churches had printed bulletins or order’s of worship at the time of the writing of the appendix to the Westminster Directory for the Public Worship of God.

Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.

Add to that seasonal decorations, trees, manger scenes, wreathes, Easter lilies, advent candles, any type of candle not for purpose of lighting, and we have a host of unwarranted trappings in the worship of God.

Take celebrate to mean emphasize.

What do you mean by trappings? Is it that seasonal hymns, scripture readings and sermons used on a Sunday remotely close to the 25th of December or a Sunday in April can detract from the worship of God?

Another genuine question. With both the incarnation and resurrection happening on a specific day, unknown to all, is there a day that is allowed to emphasize either?

 

[Rich Koster]

I just can't get into Ishtar and the Christ-mass any more. Knowledge of the origins and how polluted most celebrations are turns me off.

 

[DonP]

I'm not trying to get off track here, but just looking for some clarification. I assume that you are against having a worship service emphasizing missions once a year or a reformation themed service at the end of each october, correct?

I won't speak for Pastor Ferrell but I see nothing wrong with discussing the gospel ministry and evangelism. And if you want to host missionaries and have them speak after the worship service or have one of them preach the service fine.
But to substitute for a worship service a bunch of slide shows, I would say there is a better time for it. After worship, mid week day of mission awareness etc.
I am on the missions team at our church and we do it during the Sunday school class. Other than praying for them in worship unless we have one come preach.
The elders did have an indian chief who we believed had been converted through our missionary speak before the worship service that the missionary preached at. He was expressing thanks for our service to them and how much the mission was helping.
The excuse is the people won't all stay after church for it or come some other time etc. A poor reason in my mind.

 

[Jon Peters]

I have no problem with individuals and families privately celebrating a cultural and seasonal festival. That’s no different than having a March Madness Party. I’d only say, don’t do these things on the Lord’s Day.

The Puritan and Westminster Regulative Principle of Worship is clearly defined in the post Westminster literature. Circumstances and elements are clearly defined. Pleading some personal interpretation of the RPW does not conform to confessional subscription.

Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.

Certainly, it is the minister’s prerogative to pick the text of his sermon based upon particular pastoral needs. The Incarnation and Resurrection are commendable themes; both provide the background for all gospel preaching.

Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox.

As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.

If one is not following the Puritan Regulative Principle of Worship, don’t claim to subscribe to it. Find a different label for your principle and justify it from scripture.

So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?

It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?

 

[DonP]

So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?

It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?

Not at all.
He can preach on the incarnation any time during the year, or on the resurrection any month.
The point is the secular world should have no impact on the preaching at all, other than should a pastor decide it was in the best interest of the members to address some current event in the world to warn the flock about.

Like I think it might be good in Dec to preach against getting involved in the world and sucked into the Dec holiday to over spend and give each other gifts and help them think of ways how this might instead be avoided by giving to missionaries who are helping to tell people about Jesus, etc..

It always bugged me those who want to put Christ back in Christ-mass why they would give each other gifts instead of Him.
How self centered? Do you think that tradition of giving ourselves gifts instead of Christ was a Christian idea?
Who else's b-day do we celebrate that way??

Is this even sensible??