Charismatic gifts and missions

[arapahoepark]

So reading the comments section of the Heidelblog's newest post, I was curious as to any experiences or any other thoughts on has of charismatic gifts on missions. I am skeptical. My friend wants to be a missionary but his theology is lacking, he attends a hyper charismatic church and went on a few month mission via YWAM to Berlin. He said many other YWAM grpups in the area reported healings and such. Problem is that they are unverified.
One rebuttal I have heard from many charismatics is that that stuff they did not believe happened and brought people to Christ.
What are your thoughts?

 

[yeutter]

Permit me to make a few observations from the area that I know best. Nepal has been open to the Gospel only relatively recently. All sorts of false pentecostal preaching has flooded into Nepal. The number of Christians seems to be growing despite the false preaching. When the earthquake struck a year ago; solid reformation Churches, like the Himalayan Church of the Lutheran Confession provided relief to the communities where they had congregations. [Relief was slow to come through official sources.] Their pastors were bold in preaching the Gospel, both before and after the earthquake.

From the reports that I hear; the Himalayan Church of the Lutheran Confession has experienced real growth. So has the Believer's Church of Nepal; which is affiliated with Gospel for Asia. The pentecostal friendly Anglican Deanery of Nepal has likewise experienced real growth.

God brings people to faith, and repentance, on His terms, in His time. Our responsibility is to stand as a witness for the truth of Jesus Christ. We are to stand for the objective truth of the Scriptural witness to Jesus.

The Church planter, that my wife and I sponsor; started with eight souls; that left the false teaching of an established Church. Now, two years later, he has more then 24 in his small congregation. We expected more people would come out of the apostate false Church. All of the increase came from those who turned from Hindu darkness to the Gospel. No one else came out of the false Church, though it is believed their are some in that congregation who know Christ and understand the Gospel. Our Church planter has translated the Heidelberg into Nepali. He has made connection with other established congregations where the Gospel is preached in purity. God works on the mission field in ways that we would not expect.

 

[rickclayfan]

One rebuttal I have heard from many charismatics is that that stuff they did not believe happened and brought people to Christ.

The appearance of signs and wonders is no new phenomenon. People who are gullible and unhealthily desirous of miracles will believe anything that looks like one. Many, not being content with the simple (outwardly; however, profound and radical spiritually) things of the Christian life, crave for outward manifestations. Such cravings evidence a deficiency in or even absence of true saving faith. Why is Pentecostalism/Charismaticism so prevalent? Because when fire is lacking, people run after the nearest thing to it -- smoke.

Check out Warfield's Counterfeit Miracles. Very helpful.

 

[MW]

One rebuttal I have heard from many charismatics is that that stuff they did not believe happened and brought people to Christ.

I would point to John 20:26-31, which shows the sufficiency of the miracles recorded in Scripture to bring souls to faith in Christ. Requiring a personal experience of a miracle is a hindrance, not a help, to faith. Holy Scripture is very clear that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If someone was brought to faith in Jesus Christ, it was by Word and Spirit.

 

[Moses Costigan]

One rebuttal I have heard from many charismatics is that that stuff they did not believe happened and brought people to Christ.

The appearance of signs and wonders is no new phenomenon. People who are gullible and unhealthily desirous of miracles will believe anything that looks like one. Many, not being content with the simple (outwardly; however, profound and radical spiritually) things of the Christian life, crave for outward manifestations. Such cravings evidence a deficiency in or even absence of true saving faith. Why is Pentecostalism/Charismaticism so prevalent? Because when fire is lacking, people run after the nearest thing to it -- smoke.

Check out Warfield's Counterfeit Miracles. Very helpful.

I think rickclayfan makes good point in regards to the seeking after signs and wonders.

The other thing that is evident from the very beginning of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement up until today is the complete lack of consistency of the preaching and practice of prominent leaders with orthodox biblical Christianity. Charles Fox Parham (a Wesleyan holiness minister) was the most significant figure in the birth of the Pentecostal movement, he was also a ardent advocate of British-Israelism and supporter of the Klu Klux Klan..... It's very hard to believe that the Holy Spirit would work through a heretical racist. Many of Parham's early followers were missionary candidates who had chosen to abandon their foreign language studies because they believed that Parham could help them 'channel' the apostolic gift of speaking in other languages. Disheartened, Parham and his followers revised their understanding of his 'gift' to be a kind of 'spirit language' where the Holy Spirit speaks to a person's soul effective through gibberish babbling..... This is of course completely inconsistent with glossolalia described in Acts 2 at Pentecost and by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14. Both of these instances referred to the speaking of human languages unknown to the speaker.

In terms of the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement and its impacts on mission (please keep in mind this is just my opinion)..... This is overwhelming harmful. A lot of times, particularly in developing nations, the advocates of the charismatic movement whether they be low profile (typically indigenous preachers/ministers/evangelists) or high profile (for example, Reinhard Bonnke in Africa; Benny Hinn in India but also Kenneth Copeland; Jesse Duplantis etc etc) make a laughing stock of Christ by selling supposed miracles to the poor, the desperate and the gullible. Long-term, the spread of the true gospel is severely hampered by the empty, fake showmanship of the charismatic movement.

I haven't read the book by Warfield (though i intend to) that was recommended but Strange Fire by John MacArthur provides a really incisive history and critique of the Charismatic movement.

 

[Tom Hart]

Thanks to those who have replied. This is really helpful for me, as my family is still in some kind of Pentecostal mode of thinking, and I know many people who lean towards a more Charismatic version of Christian religion. Very dangerous stuff, and it have been spreading far and fast over the last century.

 

[Ajay]

Charismatic and pentecostal and word of faith groups are real threat to biblical Christianity.
The Baptist, Lutheran Churches almost collapsed in this great flood.
In the name of unity the evangelicals compromise with this type of groups.



Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

 

[Pergamum]

When listening to extraordinary reports happening on the mission field, here are some possibilities:

(1) The missionaries and/or the host group are gullible and open to such happenings and thus produce a climate that aids in the false-observation or over-reporting of these happenings.

(2) The cultures are more steeped in outward spirit worship and so spiritual forces are also more outward. Or at least the interpretation of things tends towards more of a spiritual attribution.

(3) In pioneering areas where the gospel has never been preached, there is a more dramatic clash between the gospel and the former powers. And in cultures where the spirits are actively invited into people or contacted, we will see more real spirit activity.

I believe all 3 options above happen on the mission field.

The West versus Animist cultures - a difference in worldview:
On one hand, remember that the West is largely secular and poo-poos the demonic or extraordinary. Scratch a Western Christian and underneath many of them you will find a secularist who largely does not believe in an active spiritual realm of angels and demons or in the supernatural. This is wrong and unbiblical. There is, indeed, a real war between spiritual forces happening, even now.

On the other hand, scratch many a 3rd-World Christian and underneath you will find a functional animist who sees virtually everything to have spiritual causations. This is also often wrong and unbiblical. In our struggles against the world, the flesh, and the devil, 100% of our struggles are not due to demons...but often due to the sin natures of people.

Self-serving reports:
Also consider the self-serving nature of some reports. Such reports gain an audience. And, if the devil targets you...then, well...you must be worthy of being a target. Thus, these stories become a convenient way to enhance one's spiritual prestige.


A real story: In Papua there is a good missionary who has charismatic leanings. He is very nice and seems to truly believe and has a thriving church. Part of his personal testimony, however, was that the Lord used him to raise the dead back to life again. A person who was drowned returned to life with their prayers. This episode figures prominently in their written testimony.

BUT....here is the problem....

I have also "raised" 3 such "dead people" myself. Tribal people who have a fever or are hurt or scared...well, many of them will lie inert and unmoving and appear, to all present and untrained, to be dead.

But if you administer a shot or start an iv or sometimes just pinch them out of their inward-focused nearly comatose state (often out of fear, it seems) they re-enliven and wake up.

On these occasions, the people have said, "Oh he's dead" but then, "Oh, he came back!" If I desired so to do, I could easily stir these misperceptions to enhance my status or else, if I believed such things were happening myself, I could believe it to be so and send an astounding report back to my churches. As it is, I praise God for healing, yet avoid reporting that I have ever raised dead bodies back to life again.

 

[Pergamum]

If He did not rise, but is still dead, how is it that
He routs and persecutes and overthrows the false
gods, whom unbelievers think to be alive, and the evil
spirits whom they worship? For where Christ is named,
idolatry is destroyed and the fraud of evil spirits is exposed;
indeed, no such spirit can endure that Name,
but takes to flight on sound of it. This is the work of
One Who lives, not of one dead; and, more than that,
it is the work of God.

Athanasius, On the Incarnation

 

[arapahoepark]

When listening to extraordinary reports happening on the mission field, here are some possibilities:

(1) The missionaries and/or the host group are gullible and open to such happenings and thus produce a climate that aids in the false-observation or over-reporting of these happenings.

(2) The cultures are more steeped in outward spirit worship and so spiritual forces are also more outward. Or at least the interpretation of things tends towards more of a spiritual attribution.

(3) In pioneering areas where the gospel has never been preached, there is a more dramatic clash between the gospel and the former powers. And in cultures where the spirits are actively invited into people or contacted, we will see more real spirit activity.

I believe all 3 options above happen on the mission field.

The West versus Animist cultures - a difference in worldview:
On one hand, remember that the West is largely secular and poo-poos the demonic or extraordinary. Scratch a Western Christian and underneath many of them you will find a secularist who largely does not believe in an active spiritual realm of angels and demons or in the supernatural. This is wrong and unbiblical. There is, indeed, a real war between spiritual forces happening, even now.

On the other hand, scratch many a 3rd-World Christian and underneath you will find a functional animist who sees virtually everything to have spiritual causations. This is also often wrong and unbiblical. In our struggles against the world, the flesh, and the devil, 100% of our struggles are not due to demons...but often due to the sin natures of people.

Self-serving reports:
Also consider the self-serving nature of some reports. Such reports gain an audience. And, if the devil targets you...then, well...you must be worthy of being a target. Thus, these stories become a convenient way to enhance one's spiritual prestige.


A real story: In Papua there is a good missionary who has charismatic leanings. He is very nice and seems to truly believe and has a thriving church. Part of his personal testimony, however, was that the Lord used him to raise the dead back to life again. A person who was drowned returned to life with their prayers. This episode figures prominently in their written testimony.

BUT....here is the problem....

I have also "raised" 3 such "dead people" myself. Tribal people who have a fever or are hurt or scared...well, many of them will lie inert and unmoving and appear, to all present and untrained, to be dead.

But if you administer a shot or start an iv or sometimes just pinch them out of their inward-focused nearly comatose state (often out of fear, it seems) they re-enliven and wake up.

On these occasions, the people have said, "Oh he's dead" but then, "Oh, he came back!" If I desired so to do, I could easily stir these misperceptions to enhance my status or else, if I believed such things were happening myself, I could believe it to be so and send an astounding report back to my churches. As it is, I praise God for healing, yet avoid reporting that I have ever raised dead bodies back to life again.

I am curious as to the spiritual warfare and how it looks and how it could be confused with charismatic stuff?

 

[Pergamum]

When listening to extraordinary reports happening on the mission field, here are some possibilities:

(1) The missionaries and/or the host group are gullible and open to such happenings and thus produce a climate that aids in the false-observation or over-reporting of these happenings.

(2) The cultures are more steeped in outward spirit worship and so spiritual forces are also more outward. Or at least the interpretation of things tends towards more of a spiritual attribution.

(3) In pioneering areas where the gospel has never been preached, there is a more dramatic clash between the gospel and the former powers. And in cultures where the spirits are actively invited into people or contacted, we will see more real spirit activity.

I believe all 3 options above happen on the mission field.

The West versus Animist cultures - a difference in worldview:
On one hand, remember that the West is largely secular and poo-poos the demonic or extraordinary. Scratch a Western Christian and underneath many of them you will find a secularist who largely does not believe in an active spiritual realm of angels and demons or in the supernatural. This is wrong and unbiblical. There is, indeed, a real war between spiritual forces happening, even now.

On the other hand, scratch many a 3rd-World Christian and underneath you will find a functional animist who sees virtually everything to have spiritual causations. This is also often wrong and unbiblical. In our struggles against the world, the flesh, and the devil, 100% of our struggles are not due to demons...but often due to the sin natures of people.

Self-serving reports:
Also consider the self-serving nature of some reports. Such reports gain an audience. And, if the devil targets you...then, well...you must be worthy of being a target. Thus, these stories become a convenient way to enhance one's spiritual prestige.


A real story: In Papua there is a good missionary who has charismatic leanings. He is very nice and seems to truly believe and has a thriving church. Part of his personal testimony, however, was that the Lord used him to raise the dead back to life again. A person who was drowned returned to life with their prayers. This episode figures prominently in their written testimony.

BUT....here is the problem....

I have also "raised" 3 such "dead people" myself. Tribal people who have a fever or are hurt or scared...well, many of them will lie inert and unmoving and appear, to all present and untrained, to be dead.

But if you administer a shot or start an iv or sometimes just pinch them out of their inward-focused nearly comatose state (often out of fear, it seems) they re-enliven and wake up.

On these occasions, the people have said, "Oh he's dead" but then, "Oh, he came back!" If I desired so to do, I could easily stir these misperceptions to enhance my status or else, if I believed such things were happening myself, I could believe it to be so and send an astounding report back to my churches. As it is, I praise God for healing, yet avoid reporting that I have ever raised dead bodies back to life again.

I am curious as to the spiritual warfare and how it looks and how it could be confused with charismatic stuff?

Here is a link to my old blog with recommendations for five books on spiritual warfare: http://sovereigngracemissiology.blogspot.com/2009/08/books-on-spiritual-warfare-very.html

Spiritual warfare does happen. But often not like the Charismatics say.