Charismatic Landmines!!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Individual responses to God's grace is fine, but we are talking about corporate worship by the Church. I would highly recommend a very good book by D.G. Hart titled "With Reverence and Awe". The book is about reclaiming Reformed worship in the Church. As Hart notes, the Churches worship reflects its theology. Dancing and spontaneously lifting of hands may fit Charismatic Theology, but does it fit into Reformed Theology? I don't believe it does.
 
I obviously am missing something. :puzzled:

I thought theology is supposed to mirror the Bible. I'm reformed, because in my opinion reformed theology mirrors the Bible best. I'm not charasmatic, I don't think of myself as charasmatic, I've seldom attended a charasmatic church. By not addressing this subject in my own mind I see myself in danger of ignoring the truths of the Bible because it doesn't fit in with my Reformed theology. To me that could be a very dangerous way of thinking.

I don't understand how we can determine that the Bible passages are for personal and not corporate worship. Particularly in the examples of Miriam and David, neither were praising God by themselves, both were worshipping with the nation of Israel...and if David was not involved in corporate worship leading the way into the city, it would seem to me that when the Ark reached the Tabernacle he would've been.

I'm obviously having a hard time differentiating between when a passage refers to corporate or personal worship. What am I missing that is apparently so obvious to everyone else :question:



[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney]
 
Janice...

[quote:ac457ba972][i:ac457ba972]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:ac457ba972]
I obviously am missing something. :puzzled:

I thought theology is supposed to mirror the Bible. I'm reformed, because in my opinion reformed theology mirrors the Bible best. I'm not charasmatic, I don't think of myself as charasmatic, I've seldom attended a charasmatic church. By not addressing this subject in my own mind I see myself in danger of ignoring the truths of the Bible because it doesn't fit in with my Reformed theology. To me that could be a very dangerous way of thinking.

I don't understand how we can determine that the Bible passages are for personal and not corporate worship. Particularly in the examples of Miriam and David, neither were praising God by themselves, both were worshipping with the nation of Israel...and if David was not involved in corporate worship leading the way into the city, it would seem to me that when the Ark reached the Tabernacle he would've been.

I'm obviously having a hard time differentiating between when a passage refers to corporate or personal worship. What am I missing that is apparently so obvious to everyone else :question:



[Edited on 7-18-2003 by ChristianasJourney] [/quote:ac457ba972]

A good place to start is the regulative principle. Do you believe that God has ordained a particular way He wants to be worshiped? Or, do you believe that God does not care about the how, but does care about the why?

There is an important distinction between these two. The reformed have always (at least until recently) believed that the worship of God is regulative and not normative.

So, one must decide whether or not the Bible teaches that God has prescribed worship in a regulative or a normative way.

In Christ,

KC
 
Am I mistaken, was not Mariam and David celebrating national victories, or national events? Seems, to me they were national events and should have been accompanied by joy, but at the same time I can see and easy transition to solemnity upon arriving at the tabernacle.

Grace has a way of producing both joy and fear, at least it should. Look at Peter in Luke 5. Christ graced them with a great haul of fish, but instead of rejoicing and hoping up and down, he said, "Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord" Grace produced fear, a sense of unworthiness.

Soveriegn election should produce both great joy and great sorrow, and a recognition "that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:17). Election should fill us with anticipation, but sober us with sacrifice. This mixture of emotion is one of the things that makes the cross so beautiful. It is the highlight of our salvation, where the devil was crushed beneath God's heal, and our future joy in heaven was marked in stone. But is also demonstates our wretchedness, our depravity. I often ponder death, the death of Christians that is, because I feel that same sense of meloncholy. Joy at knowing where they live, and sorrow at thier passing and the curse of sin. This kind of meloncholy should be absored in every worship service. GOD's GRACE NECESSARILY POINTS TO OUR DEPRAVITY.

With those things in mind and in light of what puritan sailor said earlier about contexts, the lifting of hands is more a symbol of depravity and helplessness, than it is of exuberance.

Is there pure joy in the christian life? Not on this side of heaven. The highs we feel should bind us. I imagine it is like having a child (I do not have any so it is pure speculation) but the anticipation of a child could lead to dancing, but the birth of the child, at that moment leads to binding joy. You do not want to frolick around the room like a new born goat, rather you absorb your joy with tears.

For me this is what church should be like, joy on the way to worship the Lord, and joy so intense your heart could burst, but tamed by an acknowledgement of God's sacrifice on your behalf.

Hopefully this is clear, Christians that remain stoic in worship services are not necessarily unfeeling. They may be more astir with emotion than those bouncing and dancing. Personally, I am of the first group, and find it hard to believe those who lift thier hands are not missing something of the gospel. There is not grace where they is not need first.

Perhaps if I saw a broken-hearted joy, accompaning the raising of hands, I may think diffrently about the whole issue. Sadly, I see unadulterated exuberance more.
 
Christian Joy

How do we properly express joy? This has been posed to many many a time by my charasmatic and arminian friends in reference to worship. Contemperory worship does indeed look joyful, and having partaken in it most of my life I experienced wonderful emotions with it. But then I had to ask my self, is this the right way to express joy in worship? Should we just "let the Spirit move you" or cast away all our restraint in expressing our joy? Love, joy, and peace, are all fruits of the Spirit, but so are meekness, gentleness, and most importantly self control. All these are fruits of the Spirit, and must not contradict one another. Our love and joy in Christ though overwhelming in the heart, must not make us lose control of our actions and emotions. I by no means contend that we have no joy at all. Joy is an unavoidable and necessary fruit of knowing Christ. But we must keep balance. I know none of you here are advocating the "let loose and let God" philosophy in worship but we all still have that sinful tendency to take a good thing to a sinful end. I'm not saying I've found all the answers in this arena either, for I still struggle with it. But I do know that I now find great comfort in the boundaries of the regulative principle. But perhaps this little input may generate some thoughts from the rest of you.
 
Today, a week later after my original post, produced a completely diffrent worship service. It is bazzare. Why did I a week after a hand lifting service, find my self in a very reserved service. Last week many, many people were raising thier hands (80-100), today very few (4-5), why the dramatic turn around? I think I have a couple answers, though it could be anything, 1.) Today was rainy, last week was sunny and bright. 2.) Last week there was electirc guitar and drums, this week was rather plain, bass guitar, acuostic, and a couple piano's. The music was similar, and the theology was, once again, good. There may be other things I don't know about, but I think those are the best bets. Though I think if weather and accompaniment dictate religious affections or at least the manifestations of it, there is a serious problem goinging on.

I love my church, but worry about this area of it. The church is a blessing to many, but I believe hot and cold manifestations of religious affections does not display grounded theology. One of the better aspects of the regulative principal is consistency, and that consistency can shoot down deep roots.

Sancta-fixation
 
I would caution against observations of others displays of worship. Our congregation can be jubilant one week and reserved the next. In looking back one can usually see that God has been working in varied manners and it causes a varied response.
 
Lawrence,
I agree with you, and I will heed your caution, only from the outside looking in. If I visited this my church the last two sundays, without prior history, I would wonder if a tradgedy had happend. It seems an inconsistency, but I will heed your warning. I will leave the thread open to the theology, and rightness or wrongness of the demonstration, rather than surface level observations.

Thanks--Sancta
 
Janice,

When I talk about corporate worship and KC talks about the Regulative Principle, we are talking about what Scripture prescribes for believers when they come together as the Church for worship. Consider 1 Cor 14. Here Paul is explaining to the Corinthians that there needs to be order in the Church. That what is to be done is to be done for the edification of all not for self edification. There is nothing particularly wrong with lifting your hands up during the worship service. Unfortunately it has gotten a bad rap because it is so associated with the Charismatic movement. But is it appropriate for someone to start praying out loud during the sermon? or sing a different hymn from the one the rest of the congregation is singing? Or lifting their hands when everone else has their hands to their sides or clasped together? This is what I mean as to personal vs corporate worship. What we do as the Church we do together.

As far as our worship matching our theology, I agree with you that Reformed Theology is what the Bible teaches. But there are distinctives within Reformed worship that are different from say an Arminian worship service. Hopefully, you will not see an "alter call" at a Reformed Church as compared to an Arminian Church where they are trying to get someone to make a "decision" for Christ. The alter call fits with Arminian Theology and would be considered appropriate for their service.
 
I am sure you hate me using this word again but BALANCE.....BALANCE. Exuberance and Reverence, Sorrow and Joy, Head and Heart, Preaching and Singing, Sovereignty and Responsibility. Appreciate the fact that you are reflective and quiet and that your Christian friends are more expressive with their body. Do not allow any personal views to hinder your encounter with Christ.
 
lifting of hands

1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.

If anything it states that men should be the only ones lifting up their hands. Also if we want to take the verse in its plain translation, it states every place, so does that mean that we sould be lifting our hands in the grocery store?
 
[quote:ff4d70de47][i:ff4d70de47]Originally posted by canuk[/i:ff4d70de47]
1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.

If anything it states that men should be the only ones lifting up their hands. Also if we want to take the verse in its plain translation, it states every place, so does that mean that we sould be lifting our hands in the grocery store? [/quote:ff4d70de47]

Notice also that this lifting of hands is for prayer, not for singing :)
I think what he means by "every place" is in all the churches, but I'll have to review the context.
 
WORSHIP IN THE MELTING POT has some good points on the topic.

Read a Charismatic author years ago that said the problem with the fundamentalist was that they had brains. He continued that the fundies should box their brains up and put them on a rocket and fly them to the moon.

Now, I may miss his point, but it seems he said to worship like a Charismatic you have to be brainless. :bouncy: :wr51:
 
I also am reading this thread looking for guidance. I think I have a hangup or two. The hands thing I can put up with, I think Calvin said it was biblical, which must make it so!:biggrin: There's some kids I visit sometimes in their home group who do this, and who crouch when they pray,etc. If they're doing it for attention, I don't think they know it, they seem very sincere, but their continual level of enthusiasm, unremitting love of all things emotional, i.e.John Piper & Keith Green (I honestly don't think most of them can tell the difference!) is worrying. BTW, Love Piper! They get distracting to me and when they start worshipping I want to escape, which makes me wonder what's wrong with me. Don't I love God?
 
I used to go to a mega semi charismatic seeker sensitive dispie church. They raised hands and some even did little dances while the LOUD music played. It didn't bother me other than the noise.

Now that I think back to it, many of those folks only picked that church because of the entertainment instead of the theology.

The only time I was really bothered was when some guy sat next to me pretending to ride a motorcycle. What a loon, he would hold his hands up like he was on the bike and made motorcycle sounds. He would jolt back and make a sound like he was peeling out, then hitting his brakes. He kept on doing it over and over. I wanted to leave, but prayed may way through it.

Scott knows the church - it was CC.

Anyway it has nothing to do with this thread now that I think about it, but I spent all this time writing it, sorry y'all had to hear it.

But yeah, the raising hands thing isnt all that bad. Pull out the snakes and arsenic and I am outa there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top