Define Modesty?

[Gesetveemet]

How do we define modesty? Specifically concerning dress. Even more specifically, women's dress.

There is something to read about Modesty vs. Immodesty here.
http://www.momof9splace.com/sinof.html

THE SIN OF BATH-SHEBA II Samuel 11:2
An Address to Christian Women
By a Brother in Christ

Williams

 

[LadyFlynt]

Yes, in a Christian Society you will not see nakedness...and not because of culture.

 

[SemperWife]

Ok, so here's what is going through my head with the excuse that in some cultures everyone runs around naked. I, personally, have never talked to any of these people and I don't know of anyone who has so we have no idea what is going on in the minds of these 'tribal' men. Most likely (and I'm just assuming here) they too have a lusting issue but they are a pegan society and thus say that 1. dressing like that is perfectly normal and 2. lusting is ok.

I agree. When considering other tribal cultures, it is important to remember that all men and women sin. I am sure even tribes in the most remote parts of the world struggle with lust as it is sin. Their lust may/may not take a different form than ours does, but it is lust just the same.

I am a nursing mother. I have some friends from the Phillipines that tell me women don't bother to cover there at all when in public. Wherever they are at, they just open up their shirts and feed. She tells me that it doesn't seem to be an issue for the men there. I don't know for sure since I have never been there. However, I find it difficult to believe that a man might not have any sinful thoughts arise from such an exposure, filipino or not. Just because something becomes the "norm" doesn't mean a man can't be tempted by it. Men may not go around talking about what they saw, but they can still certainly lust in their thoughts.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Let me just improve a teensy bit upon what some others have said.

I think it does matter what a particular culture believes is sensual. For the Japanese culture, for instance, it used to be very sensual merely to show a portion of your wrist. Some cultures found the display of ankles sensuous.

The question of the display of thighs is interesting. I was just thinking about this some more because I know that the Jewish (and Mid East cultures) all considered the uncovering of the legs at all to be shameful. There are tractactes from Rabbis that go to great lengths how a man ought to get mud or blood all over the bottom of his garment then accidentally uncover his ankles. The picture of the father running to the prodigal son is very powerful when one considers the shame in hiking up his robe to run to the son and fall on him to embrace him. But that's an aside.

Now I'm not willing to throw all of the discussion of the thigh being nakedness into the category of cultural accomodation but I do think we need to think beyond the body part and what the body part signifies to the person.

Frankly, if you're in an Arabic culture, ladies, your best bet is to cover yourselves up. They stumble just by seing the female form at all. I've heard numerous accounts from women there as well as men, of Arabic men literally walking up to American women and grabbing them. One Marine that worked for me had to walk down the street with a woman to protect her from such assaults. Now, in my estimation, she probably would have just been smarter to just wear a robe to remove the threat altogether but we have a strong tendency in our culture not to be put out by the fact that others will be tempted. If it's not a temptation for us then it's not immodest, we conclude.

 

[SemperWife]

With regard to modesty, I try to consider two things when I dress and do my hair/make-up. First, Will Christ be pleased? Second, Will my husband be pleased? If I am uncertain about something, I look to my husband.

Men are a great resource in this area. They know what tempts them and even other men. As a sister in Christ, I don't want to cause my brother to stumble. So I consider these things.

 

[QueenEsther]

With regard to modesty, I try to consider two things when I dress and do my hair/make-up. First, Will Christ be pleased? Second, Will my husband be pleased? If I am uncertain about something, I look to my husband.

Men are a great resource in this area. They know what tempts them and even other men. As a sister in Christ, I don't want to cause my brother to stumble. So I consider these things.

That's a good thing to remember! I remember one summer I dressed totally modest and without any regard to fashion, because I was trying to dress for my friends mom and I wanted her to like me. It took me a while before I realized what I was doing and I didn't need to be wearing things for someone else. I still dressed modestly (perhaps not to that extent) but my attitude and focus changed.

 

[Bondman]

I would agree with aforementioned sentiments. However, when engaging in missions across the world, say an "uncivilized" tribe where the men wear nothing but loincloths, and the women, according to our American standard, are dressed immodestly, we'd have to be patient. Modesty to them would be a bit different than modesty to us.

Agreed. I think. While modesty in their corrupt understanding would be a bit different, we would rightly judge their immodesty as immodesty, and deal with it at an appropriate time, using wisdom.

 

[SRoper]

I have some friends from the Phillipines that tell me women don't bother to cover there at all when in public. Wherever they are at, they just open up their shirts and feed.

My pastor preached at a church (I think it was in Ghana) where the women did that during the sermon (and didn't cover up afterwards)! The men and women sit separately, however.

 

[Bondman]

Since my good buddy Matt drops bombs and leaves for hours with no explanation, I guess I can shed some light on the Pastors position.

His position on modesty has been clearly taught from the pulpit (roughly a year ago). I am posting this to not drag this man down but in hopes these things move you to pray for him and the session.
1- The culture dictates what is modest dress. ie. Our culture accepts some cleavage to be seen and you will still be in the bounds of modesty if you show some. He uses examples of cultures that are naked all the time. I guess those cultures will never have modesty problems!
2- There is nothing wrong with looking at naked art/ pictures . You can look at such things as long as you dont lust after the art. He uses the example of his sabbatical to Europe showing a man can look at this art and not sin.
3- No man should be telling a woman what she can or cant wear. Everyone should decide whats proper for themselves.

I must stop there
There are other serious issues with the way Scripture is being interpreted and taught. Please pray for my church and session.

Thanks good buddy!

Joe accurately portrays the situation here. I will be pursuing this matter further and coming back to the esteemed PB brothers and sisters with the progress or lack thereof. Thanks for the comments. They are helping me formulate what it is that I should say next to my pastor.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Lactivist stepping out here....

In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...

the old story goes...

A male Dr in the middle east walked into a room full of nursing mothers...they all screamed and scrambled to cover their....

Heads. They continued openly nursing.

 

[QueenEsther]

the old story goes...

A male Dr in the middle east walked into a room full of nursing mothers...they all screamed and scrambled to cover their....

Heads. They continued openly nursing.

That's funny

 

[QueenEsther]

I certainly hope my comment was not seen as an excuse for someone to indulge in their lusts. I also never said these people lack any lusting issues. I just don't believe, in certain cultures, that their lust is aroused by the same things. For example, women who go around topless (which some of these people have seen their whole lives). I also never meant to imply that lusting is ok, as I think it's a terrible plague amongst men today, even Christian men.

I agree with Rich's last post.

So, let it be known that Josh isn't making excuses for the tribal men's lust (nor any other man's), nor was he advocating that we write off parts of sScripture for the sake of cultural placation. Rather, I was just making an observation concerning the definition of modesty and how it may be differently understood in different cultures.

Just my , and I'm sure I've some change comin' back to me, as I'm sure it's not worth much.

Not at all, I didn't think you were excusing them, I understand where you were coming from, I just don't think that using the whole "tribal' thing is a valid excuse for women being immodest here.

 

[Bondman]

Lactivist stepping out here....

In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...

the old story goes...

A male Dr in the middle east walked into a room full of nursing mothers...they all screamed and scrambled to cover their....

Heads. They continued openly nursing.

"For non-Muslim women like me, public breastfeeding is much like anywhere in the USA. We try to be as discreet as possible, not "showing anything." Muslim women usually wear an abaya, or black cloak, and I often notice little feet sticking out! The abaya, it turns out, is the perfect breastfeeding cover-up. Actually, this and other Saudi customs can serve to make public breastfeeding easier than in many parts of the world. Another example is the seating in restaurants. All restaurants have separate areas for single men and for families. Many also have a women-only section. In the family section, there are usually folding screens or curtains to give the family complete privacy while they are dining. I have found either the screen/curtain or the ladies-only section a perfect place to feed my nurslings."

- http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVJunJul05p60.html

The only reason they can breastfeed in public is because they are wearing tents or are behind large screens.

 

[SemperWife]

Lactivist stepping out here....

In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...

and

I hope my comment was not taken as though I thought it was OK to "ostracize" people on the basis of nursing publicly. I am a nursing mother. I certainly realize that there is not always a place to go. In the states, where nursing publicly/openly (breasts completely exposed) is legal but not generally practiced, it would not be modest (in my opinion) to do so. The modest thing would be to cover in some fashion. I nurse in public settings, but always covered so as not to be a temptation to any man. I would never advocate ostracizing anyone even if they did so.

 

[SemperWife]

"... We try to be as discreet as possible, not "showing anything." Muslim women usually wear an abaya, or black cloak, and I often notice little feet sticking out! The abaya, it turns out, is the perfect breastfeeding cover-up. Actually, this and other Saudi customs can serve to make public breastfeeding easier than in many parts of the world...

The only reason they can breastfeed in public is because they are wearing tents or are behind large screens.

While I don't think we need to wear a tent or necessarily go behind a large screen, I also don't think we should be bare-breasted, at least in America. There is something to be said for a little discretion/modesty...particularly in American culture.

 

[SemperWife]

I agree. When considering other tribal cultures, it is important to remember that all men and women sin. I am sure even tribes in the most remote parts of the world struggle with lust as it is sin. Their lust may/may not take a different form than ours does, but it is lust just the same.

I am a nursing mother. I have some friends from the Phillipines that tell me women don't bother to cover there at all when in public. Wherever they are at, they just open up their shirts and feed. She tells me that it doesn't seem to be an issue for the men there. I don't know for sure since I have never been there. However, I find it difficult to believe that a man might not have any sinful thoughts arise from such an exposure, filipino or not. Just because something becomes the "norm" doesn't mean a man can't be tempted by it. Men may not go around talking about what they saw, but they can still certainly lust in their thoughts.

I apologize if I demonstrated a lack of cultural sensitivity here. I just meant to imply that lust (as a sin) is an issue for all cultures. Perhaps open breastfeeding (again defined as complete exposure of the breasts) is not a lust issue for filipino and other cultures. I did allow room for that possibility. That being said, however, I am sure there are things that exist in filipino culture that are lust/sin issues for the men within that culture.

The only reason I brought in the issue of nursing was because some women use it as an excuse to be immodest. My previous posts speak more to that. I got a little sidetracked with lust/culture discussion in my initial post. Sorry!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Lactivist stepping out here....

In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...

the old story goes...

A male Dr in the middle east walked into a room full of nursing mothers...they all screamed and scrambled to cover their....

Heads. They continued openly nursing.

Colleen,

Time to pull the old mythbuster plug on this one but I seriously doubt this is a true story. It is well known that many Muslim women (in the Middle East and elsewher) will not go to a male doctor for medical help. It's one of the reasons that they train female doctors. Incidentally, this is always a planning consideration for us when we send medical teams from my commands to disaster areas. We always ensure to send a good mix of female doctors for that very reason.

Regarding the initial point, I don't believe my comment was meant to argue that nursing mothers have to leave an area but it does go to the way they do it. If by your comment you mean that everybody realizes that nursing is a normal thing so they don't have a problem with a woman baring her chest in a room full of people and nursing uncovered then I would have to disagree with you. If you mean a woman shouldn't be sent into another room because she's covered up and a guy just knows that underneath that blanket is a bare breast that he cannot see then that's not what I, or anyone else, was talking about.

The point, again, is the issue of modesty. There is no point in any woman becoming militant over the issue of who is/isn't tempted in given situations. As in all areas of faith and practice, women ought to be submitting in this area to their own Covenant heads and their heads have a responsibility to protect them from eyes that they know will be falling upon them.

I have, thus, failed to provide a prescriptive list and create Talmudic writings that govern proper dress. It is an area that requires prudence and knowing the Word of God, the culture you're in, and the particular setting within that culture. I would be foolish to apply the same rules of modesty for my wife and children in all climes and places given what I know of a variety of cultures.