Depravity & Sin

[Jeff D]

Depravity & Sin can they both in every case stated in Scripture be defined in the same manner? Is their a distinguishing characteristic of one the other doesn't posses ?

It seems in some cases sin takes action because of our depravity ?

Could it be said sin is the fruit of or is depravity in action?

It seems in some cases one cannot exist with out the other ?


Would like to hear thoughts on my questions & statement. Please give scripture reference that give bases for what ever is stated.

 

[Andres]

Arminians teach that you're a sinner because you sin. Scripture teaches you sin because you're a sinner. Sin results from depravity.

 

[Jeff D]

I've had some whom I respect say they are both one & the same. Thus the reason for my question.

Another reason for this is when I look at Rom. 1 it says 3 times God gave them over.
This handing or giving over the first 2 times mentioned is God's response to man's sin.

But the third time Paul says God gave them over to a depraved mind so they could commit these acts against nature & God.

I know the answer I'm looking for at least in part might lie in this text.
One of the things I find intriguing is God did not create or bring about something that did not already exist. Man was given over to that which already existed in the very core of his being.
Then God lifts his hand further giving man over to his already depraved mind so he could commit the prior spoken of acts of sin.

In this text there is sin & depravity. Both of which all ready existed within man.
If my understanding of the text is correct Paul does not give these 3 handing or giving over by God in the actual order they happened.
It seems the depravity of mind would out of necessity had to come prior to the other 2 based in vs. 28 ........gave them over to a depraved mind TO DO those things which are not proper.

So based on this text it seems that sin is the fruit of depravity ?

Can depravity be depravity with out it's being acted out ? I think not. Understanding that this can in fact take place within the confines of the mind.

I'm wanting to check that the distinction here is valid. I'm asking for clarification one way or the other on this regarding my thoughts.



I guess a little more reading of Augistine might help.




His faithful & loving servant, standing in His truth, only by His grace...Jeff

 

[Peairtach]

God restrains unbelievers from being as bad as they could be in living out their sinful nature by restraining ( or common) grace.

When a society goes further from Him or rejects the Gospel, He may progressively remove restraining grace as an appropriate judgment, along with other judgements such as war, famine and economic trouble, disease and natural disasters, etc.

The New Testament talks about the sinful nature, or the flesh as opposed to the spirit. The word "depravity" is a useful systematic theology expression for the inate sinful nature.

"Total depravity" is addressing the question of if there is anything in Man's post-Fall nature that can help towards his salvation.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[aadebayo]

Interesting discussion about the depravity of man. I as a person did not have any problem in believing this doctrine when I was first taught of it. When I looked back at my life as a non Christian, I was amazed that the bible could go into so much detail about how depraved human beings are. The area for my depravity is my thought pattern. My heart was completely rotten. The truth is that as humans, we sin because we are sinners. Romans 5:12 defines it clearly. It reads "12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

 

[KeithW]

The difficulty with the word sin in the Bible is that sometimes it refers to the sinful nature and sometimes to sinful acts. The average person only thinks it refers to the latter. I sometimes use the picture of the sinful nature is the tree, and sinful acts are the fruit of that tree.

Scripture

One place in Scripture to look is 1 Tim. 1:9.

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,...(1 Tim. 1:9)

We know what the later ones in the list mean but what about the first 6? The way to find out is open a concordance and a dictionary to learn what those words mean. It ends up meaning something like, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man [believers], but for those who are without God's law written in their hearts, those neglecting or refusing to obey God, those who are irreverent towards God, those lacking respect or esteem for God and his authority, those who by nature disobey God, the godless and the ungodly,...".

My favorite Scriptural example of the sinful nature is in Deuteronomy chapter 1. God commands the Israelites to go into the land and fight and take the land, but they refuse and stay in the camp. Then they decide to go in and fight but God tells them to stay in the camp. The "sin" ends up being morally neutral. The "sin" is doing the opposite of what God says.

Martin Luther

Martin Luther wrote a book called Commentary On Romans. In the "Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans" he said this about sin.

Sin in the Scriptures means not only external works of the body but also all those movements within us which bestir themselves and move us to do the external works, namely, the depth of the heart with all its powers. Therefore the word do should refer to a person's completely falling into sin. No external work of sin happens, after all, unless a person commit himself to it completely, body and soul. In particular, the Scriptures see into the heart, to the root and main source of all sin: unbelief in the depth of the heart. Thus, even as faith alone makes just and brings the Spirit and the desire to do good external works, so it is only unbelief which sins and exalts the flesh and brings desire to do evil external works. That's what happened to Adam and Eve in Paradise (cf. Genesis 3).

That is why only unbelief is called sin by Christ, as he says in John, chapter 16, "The Spirit will punish the world because of sin, because it does not believe in me." Furthermore, before good or bad works happen, which are the good or bad fruits of the heart, there has to be present in the heart either faith or unbelief, the root, sap and chief power of all sin.

Examining the Scriptural references for unbelief are too much to go into right away so just a quick word. Some of the Greek words translated into English as unbelief, believe not, and disobedience mean "obstinate opposition", "to refuse belief", and "unwilling to be persuaded". Notice the active part of these definitions which come from our sinful nature. Other words for unbelief simply mean "lack of".

Original Sin

Original sin as described in the various historic confessions is also a good place to look. Original sin is the sinful nature we are all born with. Several confessions are available at Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics website in their Historic Church Documents section. Some examples are:

This council's position on original sin was, even "new-born children... have in them... original sin inherited from Adam".

"... it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was 'changed for the worse' through the offense of Adam's sin..."

"...also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race..."

"...since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, ...and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again..."

It is a useful exercise to read what all of the confessions say about original sin.

 

[Jeff D]

God restrains unbelievers from being as bad as they could be in living out their sinful nature by restraining ( or common) grace.


The New Testament talks about the sinful nature, or the flesh as opposed to the spirit. The word "depravity" is a useful systematic theology expression for the inate sinful nature.

"Total depravity" is addressing the question of if there is anything in Man's post-Fall nature that can help towards his salvation.

Fantastic response from all of you! The doctrine of Total Depravity, no way regarding Scripture to escape it.

I often wondered while I attended AA how those who where not Christian could gain sobriety in light of my understanding of total depravity. I have come to firmly believe that the God who granted me grace in my salvation also through His common grace can grant unbelievers sobriety & pull them from the hell of alcoholism.

Your alls replies greatly helped with the use & definitions of these terms. I some times make what is obviously simple very hard.




His faithful & loving servant , standing in His truth, only by His grace.....Jeff

 

[Cymro]

From an expression used, "sin and depravity, both of which existed within,"
it seems to make both an entity, a thing with substance. Perkins wrote,"that
sin as such does not exist." There is simply no metaphysical reality of evil.
Sin is "privative" and not "positive", being "the absence of that good which
ought to be in the creature." It is not a substance that needed to be created.
Quoted from English Hypothetical Universalism by Dr Jonathan D. Moore.

 

[Jeff D]

Perkins wrote,"that
sin as such does not exist." There is simply no metaphysical reality of evil.
Sin is "privative" and not "positive", being "the absence of that good which
ought to be in the creature." It is not a substance that needed to be created.
Quoted from English Hypothetical Universalism by Dr Jonathan D. Moore.

I question while at the same time attempt to wind my mind around "There is simply no metaphysical reality of evil" .
It is understood depravity, sin & evil have no form or can exist or stand alone as a singular entity in & only of them selves. I also clearly understand it was not created as it already existed in man apart from any help of the devil or outside source.

Jeff you touched on something I deal with regularly regarding response from those not saved. It is, why did God allow for evil ? Why did He create evil?
When it is explained that God did not create it & that it is believed by many that it would in fact be impossible for God to do such.....It is then one can see the puzzled look on the individuals face as they ponder a God who is the creator of all things along with the reality of His omnipotence, their minds struggle with the tension it creates.

It is also at this point I am humbled. Becoming very aware of my short comings in explaining God to those whom need Him most. It is then I am most close to God when I turn to Him while at home & ask for & plead for the salvation of that individual.

My only desire for being here on this sight is to better prepare myself for the teaching of those who ask & also reaching out to those not knowing God. Offering His salvation to them who need it most.
In my mind this far surpasses any ideas I might have on some nonessential doctrine or feeling good about being right.





His faithful & loving servant, standing in His truth, only by His grace....Jeff

 

[Cymro]

I ask myself can anything happen outside the will of God. And the answer comes -no-,
And it must be no. Now to explain the presence of evil, that also must also fall within the purpose
and decree of God. But to explain that to others is an area that is so mysterious and profound that
it is best avoided. To try and explain futher I defer to Perkins again.
"God's will is twofold , general and special. God's general will is, to permit that which is evil, not
simply, but because with God evil hath some respect OF GOOD, and in this respect we say God decreed
Adam's fall. God's special will, is his approving will; whereby he taketh pleasure and delight in that which
is good; and in this regard God nilled Adam's fall, andman's sins: and yet in some respects he may be
said to will them. A magistrate , though he take no comfort or delight in the death and execution of a
malefactor, yet, he decreed and appointed it, and so may be said to will it."
According to Perkins, "God hath most justly decreed the wicked works of the wicked. For if he had nilled
them, they should never have been at all, in this respect of God's decree they ARE SOME WAYS GOOD:
for there is not anything absolutely evil. The thing which in its own nature is evil, in God's eternal counsel
is respectively GOOD, in that it is some occasion and way to manifest the glory of God in his Justice, and
His Mercy."

 

[Peairtach]

The nature of sin is relational, to God first and then to our neighbour made in His image. If obedience to God's law expresses Man's love for Him, disobedience expresses Man's enmity towards Him.

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28-31)

 

[KeithW]

Sin is "privative" and not "positive", being "the absence of that good which ought to be in the creature."

To say sin is merely the "absence" of good is to miss the active compelling force of sin, and misses the corruption of sin. This can be shown from something I wrote previously.

Some of the Greek words translated into English as unbelief, believe not, and disobedience mean "obstinate opposition", "to refuse belief", and "unwilling to be persuaded". Notice the active part of these definitions which come from our sinful nature. Other words for unbelief simply mean "lack of".

These definitions come from these sources.

ἀπείθεια (Strong's G543)

• obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will (Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Apeitheia". "The New Testament Greek Lexicon")
• disobedience, disobedient: lit., "the condition of being unpersuadable" (Vine, W. E. "Disobedience, Disobedient", Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

ἀπειθέω (Strong's G544)

• 1.not to allow one's self to be persuaded (Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Apeitheo". "The New Testament Greek Lexicon".)

ἀπειθής (Strong's G545)

• impersuasible (Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Apeithes". "The New Testament Greek Lexicon".)
• unwilling to be persuaded, spurning belief, disobedient (Vine, W. E. "Disobedience, Disobedient", Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.)

Jeff you touched on something I deal with regularly regarding response from those not saved. It is, why did God allow for evil ? Why did He create evil?
When it is explained that God did not create it & that it is believed by many that it would in fact be impossible for God to do such.....It is then one can see the puzzled look on the individuals face as they ponder a God who is the creator of all things along with the reality of His omnipotence, their minds struggle with the tension it creates.

Care needs to be taken here with regards to thinking about questions of "Why did God..." or "How can God allow...". Fallen man approaches this from the standpoint that he has the capability to judge rightly what God is doing. Therefore when man typically asks these questions he is looking to find fault with God. He is attempting to fit God into his worldview. Remember that we fallen creatures rebelled against our Creator. Our faculty for judging good and evil became corrupt. In Romans 9 the inspired words of Paul eventually even say,

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Rom. 9:20)

There are answers, but they are in the context of understanding and believing in God's Sovereignty.

 

[Jeff D]

After some thought, I see "absence of good" as an over simplfied, metaphoric definition that while right falls short with out further point of explanation.



This conversation is turning out very well. It is causing me to think. Bringing about a better more deeper understanding....Jeff

 

[KeithW]

I am glad to hear what people are saying here is profitable for you. Much of the Christianity I've been exposed to spends a lot of time explaining that Jesus is the solution to our problem of sin but doesn't explain what sin is.

 

[Jeff D]

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Rom. 9:20)

There are answers, but they are in the context of understanding and believing in God's Sovereignty.

Keith, while I believe your statements & admonition to be correct.
We are also obligated by order of Christ & scripture to be prepared to give answer to any honest question asked by those not saved. Regardless of their capacity to comprehend. One can see Paul's use of of rhetorical devices in the text you bring up & through out that chapter. Paul was of course doing this to help persuade & bring about the understanding of a difficult doctrine for those who were Jewish, but not saved.

With in the context of Rom. 9:20 this text is not dealing with a heart felt, honest question of or about God. But one asked from one who is using this line of thinking, described prior to 9:20, to justify or excuse their sin.

Hard heartfelt question can proceed some ones salvation. I have seen where some one not saved.....it was was like a switch was thrown.... regarding there all at once capacity to understand something they just prior were wrestling with. This can be the Holy Spirit at work in the individual.
All who take this on will mess it up & find themselves coming up short at times. I know I do.

Kieth please feel free to correct me if I mistook what you stated or if you simply disagree.





His faithful & loving servant, standing in His truth, only by His grace.....Jeff

 

[KeithW]

Jeff, I was only pointing out something in case you were not aware of it already.

 

[Jeff D]

Keith, I understand.
It is hard & at times to know & fully grasp what is said & from what position or posture it is stated from. Especially on a internet forum. Add to that, I've not been here long as I also get to know others here.

Any way, ALL Is Good!




His faithful & loving servant, standing in His truth, only by His grace....Jeff