Do distinctives matter?

[Ne Oublie]

In light of the recent NAPARC Comity discussion, I am trying to work through some things.

Quick scenario-

Let's say there are 3 reformed churches in one city, in a 20-30 minute radius. These churches are in a confessional denomination. A conservative, confessional, Reformed person(like myself) has 3 choices. So, that person visits each of these churches. All preach the Word, all administer the sacraments. And all seemingly have accountability by either presbytery/membership/discipline. This city has optimal potential based on these facts.

Now, let's add some distinctives. These churches are in the same denomination and there is really no distinguishable traits between the 3 beside the people and place. And all three are engaged with the culture, have solid support in missions, teen programs and the like. All 3 have a contemporary style worship, either with full bands and/or orchestras, and use creative gifts creatively throughout. All 3 read from the Old and New Testaments, corporate prayer and a 35 minute sermon.

These 3 have distinctives do they not? Albeit even sharing distinctives, they do have them.

So when do alternate distinctives matter? If they ever do? And if they do not, comparably to the commitment to community, what does the person do? What if this person strongly believes in a Calvin/Knox/WCF like worship?
(By the way, great thanks to Chris Coldwell/Confessional Presbyterian Journal/Rev. Matthew Winzer for the review regarding EP in the WCF in vol.IV, a great work and a must read!)

Where would this person go?

Should this persons distinctives be played down in light of the others?

Would it be wrong to plant another Reformed Church in this area?

 

[Scott1]

You have many broad questions here that would require much information to answer.

The first question a sinner redeemed by grace ought ask is, "Where can I glorify God most?"

Your scenario, on one level, has three very good choices it seems but without a distinctive someone may have a conviction about.

As a mirror of our own imperfection, we ought not require too much as a condition of submitting to a covenant community of believers.

There's lots more that is important, but if God loves them, we must, somehow, by God's grace alone, love them too... even if they don't have our one distinctive.

 

[Ne Oublie]

You have many broad questions here that would require much information to answer.

The first question a sinner redeemed by grace ought ask is, "Where can I glorify God most?"

Your scenario, on one level, has three very good choices it seems but without a distinctive someone may have a conviction about.

As a mirror of our own imperfection, we ought not require too much as a condition of submitting to a covenant community of believers.

There's lots more that is important, but if God loves them, we must, somehow, by God's grace alone, love them too... even if they don't have our one distinctive.

Sorry about the "Tommy Gun" of questions. Some are meant to be more thought provoking, not so much that
I am expecting them all to be answered. But I will try to be more specific and plain.

I agree with the notions that you state in regards to our submission and love of other believers, especially in lieu of our own imperfections. It is much more important. But that doesn't
make distinctives just go away. Is anyone forgetting them even though they know it is more important?

What about the validity of a reformed church plant with different distinctives and no matter the how many/too close/other reformed churches in the area?

If there are 3 conservative reformed churches within 20-30 proximity that hold their own distinctives (and are very similar between the 3),
why then would it not be appropriate for a church plant with different distinctives?

 

[Scott1]

On one level, there are so many "unchurched" out there, I would think the more biblical churches the merrier, particularly with the good qualities you mentioned in your original post.

A minimum entry point for me would probably be a basic reformed theology

doctrines of grace ("five points") + covenant theology + confession of faith

but being persuaded of the biblicity of several other presbyterian and reformed characteristics, I would add:

"high" spiritual view of the sacraments + infant baptism + church discipline + "high" view of the church + governance by deacons and elders (ministers okay)

However, if someone was coming out of a Southern Baptist background, I would be quite happy to have the basic reformed theology, with the believer's only baptism form of covenant theology as long as there was a systematic theology with that.

Additionally, I'm really starting to see this as Mr. Calvin did implicitly, there must be at least some level of church discipline.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

A church with traditional worship in the area is needed. You said that all three are contemporary band focused churches. That would alienate me right there, so I wouldn't attend any of them. I would have to find a Church with a traditional worship service.

 

[Andres]

A church with traditional worship in the area is needed. You said that all three are contemporary band focused churches. That would alienate me right there, so I wouldn't attend any of them. I would have to find a Church with a traditional worship service.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I made this subject one of my first blog entries.

Are Distinctives in Biblical Doctrine Important For Churches Edit Blog Entry

PuritanCovenanter


I just thought I would start my PB Blog off with a few of my old comments. So here we go.

Here is a statement a blogger made that I really had a struggle with.

I really have no desire for ***** Baptist Church to be known as "Southern Baptist" or "Reformed." Rather, I would love for us to be known as "Christ-saturated."

While I agree with the importance of keeping the main thing the main thing, I still believe it is important to reflect our distinctives. And let me say that I don't think this gentleman is seeking to blurr his distinctives either, He just wants God's true glory and Love to be preeminent in his Church and life. But let me explain why I struggled with what he is saying.

I belonged to a Baptist Church for many years that had a Calvinistic Pastor who believed Unity was one of the most important issues. He wanted our church to be known because it was known by Jesus Christ. God's glory and doctrine were both important focal points. As important as doctrine was considered, it was to take a back seat to brotherly love though. After all Jesus said that that is how they would know we were his followers. And let me mind you that it wasn't cheap love that was promoted at our church. It was a very balanced view of love.

After a few years the church numbered in the thousands. When I started attending it was around 250. So it grew rather significantly.

Our Sunday School classes started looking like mini churches in a big church. The Sunday School teachers where mostly Elders or very competent men who could teach. Our Church staff was Calvinistic for the most part but our Eldership was not necessarily inclined to hold to these views. This was true even from the beginning of the Church.

After a while personalities became stronger in the Church structure and some of the Elders started teaching contrary to the Pulpit. In fact one of the Largest Sunday Schools took a topic that was rather disheartening. It's title was, "Why I am not a Calvinist."

This was tolerated in the name of seeking to love our Brothers and to show that even Calvinists and Arminians can get along in Christ. Attendees would go to Sunday School and hear this kind of anti-calvinsitic teaching and then go to a Service where God's grace and Soveriegn glorious love was proclaimed. It was confusing for some and divisive for others.

This Church was weakened in my estimation and it is a picture of what has happened to the Southern Baptist Convention.

I am not pleading for a separation from working with our semi-pelagian brethren. In fact I take Romans 12:3 and on very serious. But I believe much unity is sacrificed in the name of unity when we don't hold forth our distinctions.

I believe we are losing sight of 1 Timothy 4:16 when we don't want to proclaim the truths of Scripture in Christ.


1 Timothy 4:16
"Give attention to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this, you will both deliver yourself and those hearing you."

It can also be very confusing for members and others when we don't hold forth the truths we hold to. It can also cause the local assembly to be weakened and divided.

I hold no condemnation for semi-pelagians as some Calvinists do. In fact many of my best friends are very arminian. I just plea for our fellowship to be Christ centered, and for our local assemblies to recognize each other. I also plea for more soundness and distinction to be made, because sometimes the distinctions are very unifying and Christ exalting.

I am first a Christian. But so are many others. And there are yet others who name his name that are not of him. Secondly I am a Reformed Baptist because I see that the 1689 most clearly distinguishes the Person and Work of Christ and His local body as I see scripture proclaiming. And it is a good safe guard because it is based upon the Scriptures. It is a good unifying document which seeks to see God Glorified thus glorifying and exalting Jesus in my opinion.

I am not accusing anyone of being ashamed of there doctrinal distinctives. But I think it is important that we understand why we are what we are doctrinally and not to hide it under the pretense of seeking a Higher Glory.

Just my honest opinion. And I aint always right.

Just to make a note I also believe that some of these things can prove true whether they are disctinctives between Presbyterians or other Reformed denominations in the NAPARC. I don't see a problem with a congregation that holds to a 24/7 distinctive Exclusive Psalmody, Theonomic, or other Disctinctive needing any justification for planting churches along side those who don't.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I personally don't want to attend a church that doesn't adhere to a 24/7 belief. I would prefer a church that holds to appreciating the Majority family of biblical manuscripts also. I am also a positive Amil. I am a credo Baptist with leanings toward the Covenanter understanding of life, Christ's atonement and dominion, and have a strong appreciation for the singing of Psalms. I am an odd ball in most circles today. But in the mid 1600s in Europe I would most likely have had some place more acceptable to find myself .

 

[N. Eshelman]

If they are all quite similar, I would go to the one that is closest to home. This will give the most amount of time for you to be involved in ministry.

Now, if your conscience is bothered because their worship/philosophy/etc is not like yours... now there's the $5000 question!

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Since the PB is now "new" may I have a waiver from my self-imposed promise not to hype RRC? The first chapter addresses this question.

 

[Tim]

I think a good question is how well they do their distinctives. Does the sermon convict you and encourage to run towards your Savior? Is the preamble to the Lord's Supper meaningful and done with care? Do they really exercise discipline?

This would be the difference between evaluating the bulletin and evaluating the practice of each element of worship and oversight. Perhaps you are already assessing these things.

 

[Ne Oublie]

If they are all quite similar, I would go to the one that is closest to home. This will give the most amount of time for you to be involved in ministry.

Now, if your conscience is bothered because their worship/philosophy/etc is not like yours... now there's the $5000 question!

In being hypothetical in my scenario starting this post of course and spurred on by a couple comments made in your NAPARC Comity post, I agree with
the conscience being the deciding factor for each person when it comes to distinctives. So, what about the church planter? Should they be concerned of
fishing out of the same pond of the other 3 churches? I almost got the impression that planting a church because of distinctions is schismatic?

Personally, we have lived in 4 states in the last 5 years. The scenario above is not far off where we have been, a few exceptions. Praise God for the RPCNA being in the middle of Tornado alley!
We need more strongly confessional churches! Yes, for all the new believers which ever shape or form! Yes, Confessional Reformed Presbyterians are loving too, just conservatively! As we do need to be more joyful!

 

[Ne Oublie]

Since the PB is now \"new\" may I have a waiver from my self-imposed promise not to hype RRC? The first chapter addresses this question.

Thank you, Dr. Clark for your recommendation. I have long eyed this book and will budget for it.