Scott Shahan
Puritan Board Sophomore
Do people go to hell because of their "unbelief" or do people go to hell because God predestines them to hell?
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Do people go to hell because of their "unbelief" or do people go to hell because God predestines them to hell?
Do people go to hell because of their "unbelief" or do people go to hell because God predestines them to hell?
Thanks
Adam (no, not Leavelle) chose for us
People go to Hell because we all deserve to go go there, and left in our "natural" condition that's where we will indeed be.
Adam (no, not Leavelle) chose for us, he was our representative (Federal Head). The choosing is done. All in Adam are dead (going to hell). Unless God, in His mercy acts to interrupt our march, then we should all go to hell. Either way, God will be glorified before men and angels.
But God does act, God condescends, God makes provision, God elects, calls, sanctifies, glorifies. God sent His Son into the world to save sinners.
Taking counsel within himself and for his own divine purpose he has elected to save some to display his Glory. He was not obligated to do this but did it as an expression of his Love.
God the Father is forming and preparing a bride for His Son, this is history, what an amazing thing it is to watch.
Remember this, in heaven and in hell, the inhabitants experience the holiness of God. Those in heaven will be protected by the saving garment which is the righteousness of Christ. Those is hell will face God's holiness wearing only their sins. Instead of protection they will become the source of endless torment. Our sins are our own, truly our own - neither God nor Satan gave them to us - our parents, our friends didn't give them to us. We had the freedom to choose that which we desired the most and because of our inherited fallen nature (In Adam all have sinned) we desired and chose sin (Romans 1).
Yes to both questions.
I am having this discussion with a methodist pastor friend of mine about whether God can Change his mind and this is one of his arguments that he sent to me, I need some help with it,
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So, Scott, you are saying that in those passages in Scripture where we see God changing His mind, he isn't?
Who actually "changes" in these events/Scriptures? God stays the same, while men turn themselves to rebel or to repent toward God. If you are in rebellion, what will that "consuming fire" feel like? If you repent, has God stopped being a "consuming fire?" But the things that happen are many times put into words, according to the order that men experience them.
1) Israelites rebel against God at foot of Mt Sinai. Moses intercedes (God uses means all the time in this world, and he decreed Moses' pleas), and God accepted him mediation. This is the classic text of Moses, mediator of the Old Covenant. Jesus is Mediator of the New. Does God keep "changing" his mind toward us when you and I sin? No, Jesus pleads for us. Are we to suppose that at the very foundational level, God was really going to wipe out Israel? End his plan of redemption? Start over with Moses? Surely he can do what he wants, and surely he could have done some inconceivable thing, and still caused his promises to come to fulfillment. But truth is, he wanted Moses to exercise the role of the mediator. So his "relenting" is no less a part of his plan than any other event that comes to pass.
2) David sins, and the nation is judged. First, David exercises a mediatorial role here. Again, the role of a mediator is exercised, the Messiah is foretold. And again, what does the completion of the judgment appear to men as? As "relenting". What does the end of the spanking I give my child appear as, to the child? As my "relenting". But as far as I was concerned, I simply gave the child as much as I decided he deserved.
3) Psalm 106--story of Israel once again. What the verse says is that God "relents" because of the "covenant love," because of the promises he's made, and that will not change. God disciplines his people to bring them into a right relation with him, to gain repentance. This kind of action doesn't actually help the case of the person who wants to say God changes. His discipline is the product of his unchangeableness.
4) Isaiah 14:6: irrelevant, or else expand on why? Because it was unrelenting, and now relented? Ask someone to explain how starting, continuing, and stopping activity "in" history, indicates changes "in" God.
5) Isaiah 57: false repentance (people change only outwardly, hypocriticaclly)--should God's aspect change, since they haven't changed in heart? God says 'No'.
6) Jer. 4: God says the judgment is coming, no amount of religious activity will change that; the people won't be repenting anyway.
7) Jer. 8: irrelevant again
8) Jer. 15: God won't relent. The situation posed is obviously hypothetical, neither Moses nor Samuel is alive to mediate. Their mediation wouldn't avail, God says. His judgment is coming. Who wants to say, contradicting Paul, that everything that happened to Israel was NOT part of God's decree, and that such events DIDN'T occur, and WEREN'T written down "for our instruction"? Just think of what we would NOT have for our instruction, if the exile HAD NOT happened. So, God is telling Jeremiah this is going to happen, period.
9) Jer. 18 & 26: Who changed? people, they repented.
10) Jer. 31: irrelevant, human repentance
11) Jer. 42:10--what? is God SORRY he punished evil? Of course not. Ridiculous. God's discipline ends. He expresses himself as we understand our own hearts, when we discipline our own children. Our own compassions bring the infliction to an eventual end. We relent.
12) Ezek. 24: How does a verse like this support the other position? It says "I won't relent." AND (!) it says that men are judged according to what they do, presumably including true repentance! So, is someone saying that God is unpredictable or predictable? Because if he's predictable, it means he doesn't change. Is someone saying that the Bible just contradicts itself?
13) Hosea 13: again, I think this is simply a mistaken inclusion.
14) Joel 2: repentance (change in people) produces a different aspect in their approach to God
15) Amos 7: Amos exercises mediatorship
16) Jonah: Ninevah (the people) repents. Why did God give them 40 days?
God remains still. He remains a fixed point, while we all like satellites, and the world and all its events whirl around and about. Predicating all of our changes upon God just shows how perverse we are, how willing we are for us to be the fixed point, or at least for us to bring God down to our level, to make him act like a man. But God himself says: "I am not a man, that I should repent." Whatever else we get from that comment, it is clear that human repentance/relenting is something utterly different and distinct from God's.
What does the word relent mean? Does the word relent mean "change".