Does God love everyone

Status
Not open for further replies.

jeremiahburroughs

Puritan Board Freshman
An Arminian friend challenged me with:

1. If God loved someone, he would elect them (obviously).
2. Not all people are elect.
3. Therefore, God does not love everyone.

4. But John 3:16 says that God loves everyone, so Calvinism is not true.

I want to affirm that God loves everyone, but he loves the elect in a particular way. I was wondering if you guys could 1) address his argument and 2) give me the verses and vocabulary to address the heart behind this objection by "speaking the truth in love."

Thank you for your help!
 
An Arminian friend challenged me with:

1. If God loved someone, he would elect them (obviously).
2. Not all people are elect.
3. Therefore, God does not love everyone.

4. But John 3:16 says that God loves everyone, so Calvinism is not true.

I want to affirm that God loves everyone, but he loves the elect in a particular way. I was wondering if you guys could 1) address his argument and 2) give me the verses and vocabulary to address the heart behind this objection by "speaking the truth in love."

Thank you for your help!
God loves everyone. He doesn't love everyone equally.
 
John 3:16 doesn't say "God loves everyone". It says that God loves "the world".

This affirms God's general love towards His created universe, without binding God to love any specifics. God can love "the world" and still "hate" particular individuals.

Compare the following:
1. I love baseball. (A general statement. Doesn't require that I love EVERYTHING about baseball).
2. I hate the designated hitter rule. (A specific claim).

Another example:
1. I love my grandfather.
2. I hate the cancerous tumors in his body.
 
This affirms God's general love towards His created universe, without binding God to love any specifics. God can love "the world" and still "hate" particular individuals.
So the answer to the challenge is that God does not love everyone. For example, I can't honestly tell a stranger that God loves them, since they may not be elect.
 
John 3:16 doesn't say "God loves everyone". It says that God loves "the world".

This affirms God's general love towards His created universe, without binding God to love any specifics. God can love "the world" and still "hate" particular individuals.

Compare the following:
1. I love baseball. (A general statement. Doesn't require that I love EVERYTHING about baseball).
2. I hate the designated hitter rule. (A specific claim).

Another example:
1. I love my grandfather.
2. I hate the cancerous tumors in his body.
Your second example just follows the "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" formula, which is untrue. As R.C. Sproul says, (atleast I believe it was him) "God doesn't damn the sin to hell he damns the sinner to hell".
 
Your Arminian friend's argument runs on a faulty premise, namely that "love" is a single, undifferentiated thing that God either applies fully to everyone or not at all. The Reformed tradition has always distinguished between God's general love of benevolence toward all creatures and his special, electing love of complacency toward his people. Once that distinction is in place, the syllogism collapses.

Stephen Charnock addresses exactly this ground in his "Discourse on the Goodness of God" (Discourse 12 of The Existence and Attributes of God), and what he says maps directly onto this debate.

First, Charnock insists that God's goodness and love genuinely extend to all creatures, including the wicked.

There is a peculiar goodness to his people, but this takes not away his general goodness to the world. Though a master of a family has a choicer affection to those who have an affinity to him in nature and stand in a nearer relation, as his wife, children, servants, yet he has a regard to his cattle and other creatures he nourishes in his house.

And again, speaking of God's goodness to the wicked:

He makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. The wickedest breathe in his air, walk upon his earth, and drink of his water as well as the best. The sun looks with as pleasant and bright an eye upon a rebellious Absalom as a righteous David.

So Charnock would entirely agree with John 3:16 as a statement of God's genuine love for the world. The question is what kind of love it describes, and here Charnock makes the crucial distinction:

He has a tenderness for all but a peculiar affection to those who are in covenant with him.

There is a general goodness that goes out to all without exception, and there is a covenant love that belongs peculiarly to the elect. These are not contradictory; they are two distinct expressions of the same infinitely good God operating toward different objects in different ways.

Charnock goes on to defend God's sovereign right to have such peculiar objects of his love without any imputation of injustice or cruelty:

God ought to be allowed the free disposal of his own goodness. Is not God the Lord of his own gifts? And will you not allow him the privilege of having some more peculiar objects of his love and pleasure, which you allow without blame to man and use yourself without any sense of a crime? Is a prince esteemed good, though he be not equally bountiful to all his servants, nor equally gracious in pardoning all his rebels? And shall the goodness of the great sovereign of the world be discredited, notwithstanding those mighty distributions of it, because he will act according to his own wisdom and pleasure and not according to men's fancies and humors?

He then addresses the question of whether withholding saving grace is a cruelty:

Though God cannot but love his own image where he finds it, yet when this image is lost and the devil's image voluntarily received, he may choose whether he will manifest his goodness to such a one or no. God is so good that he denies not the best good to those who seek him. He has promised life and happiness to those who do so. Is he less good because he will not distribute his goodness to those who despise him? Though he be good, yet his wisdom is the rule of dispensing his goodness.

On the immensity of the love expressed in John 3:16, Charnock in no way minimizes it:

There is more of his bounty expressed in that one verse, 'God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,' than there is in the whole volume of the world. It is an incomprehensible so, a so that all the angels in heaven cannot analyze, and few comment upon or understand the dimensions of this so.

He even makes the point that the love of John 3:16 was so great that God sent his own Son in order to display it:

He so loved the world that he seemed for a time not to love his Son in comparison of it or equal with it. He spared not him that he might spare us, refused not to strike him that he might be well pleased with us, drenched his sword in the blood of his Son that it might not forever be wet with ours.

So the vocabulary to answer your friend is this: God's love of benevolence (or general goodness) extends to all men and is genuinely displayed in common providence, in the offer of the gospel, and supremely in the gift of the Son as the only sufficient Savior for the world. God's love of complacency (or covenant love) is his electing, particular, efficacious love by which he chooses a people for himself and brings them infallibly to salvation. Your Arminian friend's syllogism assumes that if God loves all men in any sense, he must elect all men, but this equivocates on the word "love." Charnock shows that the same God who sends rain on the just and the unjust also has a tenderness for all but a peculiar affection for those in covenant with him, and this is not contradiction but the beauty of an infinitely rich and sovereignly free goodness.
 
Your Arminian friend's argument runs on a faulty premise, namely that "love" is a single, undifferentiated thing that God either applies fully to everyone or not at all. The Reformed tradition has always distinguished between God's general love of benevolence toward all creatures and his special, electing love of complacency toward his people. Once that distinction is in place, the syllogism collapses.

Stephen Charnock addresses exactly this ground in his "Discourse on the Goodness of God" (Discourse 12 of The Existence and Attributes of God), and what he says maps directly onto this debate.

First, Charnock insists that God's goodness and love genuinely extend to all creatures, including the wicked.



And again, speaking of God's goodness to the wicked:



So Charnock would entirely agree with John 3:16 as a statement of God's genuine love for the world. The question is what kind of love it describes, and here Charnock makes the crucial distinction:



There is a general goodness that goes out to all without exception, and there is a covenant love that belongs peculiarly to the elect. These are not contradictory; they are two distinct expressions of the same infinitely good God operating toward different objects in different ways.

Charnock goes on to defend God's sovereign right to have such peculiar objects of his love without any imputation of injustice or cruelty:



He then addresses the question of whether withholding saving grace is a cruelty:



On the immensity of the love expressed in John 3:16, Charnock in no way minimizes it:



He even makes the point that the love of John 3:16 was so great that God sent his own Son in order to display it:



So the vocabulary to answer your friend is this: God's love of benevolence (or general goodness) extends to all men and is genuinely displayed in common providence, in the offer of the gospel, and supremely in the gift of the Son as the only sufficient Savior for the world. God's love of complacency (or covenant love) is his electing, particular, efficacious love by which he chooses a people for himself and brings them infallibly to salvation. Your Arminian friend's syllogism assumes that if God loves all men in any sense, he must elect all men, but this equivocates on the word "love." Charnock shows that the same God who sends rain on the just and the unjust also has a tenderness for all but a peculiar affection for those in covenant with him, and this is not contradiction but the beauty of an infinitely rich and sovereignly free goodness.
I was about to pull out Charnock as well. Thank you
 
Your second example just follows the "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" formula, which is untrue. As R.C. Sproul says, (atleast I believe it was him) "God doesn't damn the sin to hell he damns the sinner to hell".

You're misunderstanding the example.
[automerge]1775946858[/automerge]
Do you think God would tell you to love your enemies and he not do so?

Well, yeah, as a matter of fact.

We, being the creature, have no idea who God's enemies (the reprobate) actually are. Everyone we meet could possible be one of God's beloved elect in their pre-regenerate state. We simply have no way of knowing. So we (the creature) have no right to hate anyone.
 
The Scriptures speak of different degrees of God's love. For example, God loves mankind in general (Jn. 3:16; Matt. 5:43-48). After all, God created man in His image and therefore loves mankind to a certain degree. Yet, the Scriptures also speak of God's love for the elect - which love is grounded in election (Jn. 6:38-39; Jer. 31:3). Thus, there is a "general" love for mankind and a covenantal love for his elect church.
 
Stephen Charnock addresses exactly this ground in his "Discourse on the Goodness of God" (Discourse 12 of The Existence and Attributes of God), and what he says maps directly onto this debate.
Thank you so much for this thorough answer! That was helpful. I think I will always have some tension in my mind by how God can love them (benevolence) and have it in his power to cause them to love him (election), but forego delivering them.
 
Well, yeah, as a matter of fact.

We, being the creature, have no idea who God's enemies (the reprobate) actually are. Everyone we meet could possible be one of God's beloved elect in their pre-regenerate state. We simply have no way of knowing. So we (the creature) have no right to hate anyone.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
It appears I misread this line: "God can love "the world" and still "hate" particular individuals." sorry. :(

No worries! If I could have been more clear, then I am sorry that I wasn't.
[automerge]1775948804[/automerge]
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


You already said that in post #5, though you seem to have edited it out for some reason. I did read it the first time.
 
You already said that in post #5, though you seem to have edited it out for some reason. I did read it the first time.
Yes, I edited to remove it as it was covered in the Charnock response (I was adding it when it was being written). But, Jesus tells us 1. To love our enemies, 2. Shows how God loves his enemies. 3. Tells us that loving our enemies is an aspect of the same perfection the Father has.

I understand that the Bible tells us that God hates the wicked, but, the Bible also tells us that if we don't hate our Father & Mother we cant be Jesus' disciples... It would seem as the command to hate our parents doesn't affect our call to honor them, and exercise our natural affection towards them; so Gods hatred for the wicked does not negate his love for them. He simply doesn't love them as much as he loves the elect.
 
Last edited:
“You hate all evildoers.”
- Psalm 5:5

(Of course he hates the people he sends to hell, and he does with a perfect hatred, if he didn’t hate them he would chastise them as those he lives that brings them to repentance, but, since he brings down on them eternal torment as punishment, and not corrective disciple, he does indeed hate these lovers of self who usurp His throne and continue to revile Him as they burn away in hell)
 
One thing worth adding to the broader conversation is that Charnock helps us see that God's love is not merely a general sentiment toward humanity as an abstraction. It is a love that reaches to individual men and women, and it is this particularity that makes the distinction between his general goodness and his electing love so pastorally rich rather than cold or arbitrary.

Charnock is clear that God loves every creature as the work of his own hands, and that this is a real affection toward real persons, not an impersonal benevolence toward "mankind" in the aggregate:

Every creature has some communications from him, which cannot be without some affection to them; every creature has a footstep of divine goodness upon it. God therefore loves that goodness in the creature, else he would not love himself. God hates no creature, no, not the devils and damned as creatures. He is not an enemy to them as they are the works of his hands. He is properly an enemy who does simply and absolutely wish evil to another. But God does not absolutely wish evil to the damned; that justice that he inflicts upon them, the deserved punishment of their sin, is part of his goodness.

Charnock will not even say that God hates the devils as creatures, because he loves the being he gave them even in their ruin. How much more, then, does he love individual fallen men and women as his creatures. The problem is never the person as such, but the sin that has invaded and corrupted the person. Charnock makes this distinction with great precision:

God only hates the sin, not the sinner. He desires only the destruction of the one, not the other. The nature of a man does not displease him, because it is a work of his own goodness. But the nature of the sinner displeases him, because it is a work of the sinner's own extravagance. Divine goodness pitches not its hatred primarily upon the sinner but upon the sin, but since he cannot punish the sin without punishing the subject to which it cleaves, the sinner falls under his lash. Who ever regards a good judge as an enemy to the malefactor but rather as an enemy to his crime when he does sentence and execute him?

Now, someone will immediately raise Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5, where Scripture speaks of God hating workers of iniquity and his soul hating the wicked. Charnock deals with these texts directly. He does not soften them or explain them away. He affirms them fully while showing that the object of God's hatred, even in those passages, is properly sin itself:

He abhors it so, that his hatred redounds upon the person who commits it. He hates all workers of iniquity (Ps. 5:5). Sin is the only primary object of his displeasure. He is not displeased with the nature of man as man, for man was derived from him, but with the nature of man as sinful, which is from the sinner himself. He hates no person for all the penal evils upon him, though they were more by ten thousand times than Job was struck with, but only for his sin.

And on Psalm 11:5 specifically, Charnock shows that the hatred spoken of there flows directly and necessarily from God's holiness toward sin, and that its expression in punishment is the only consistent outworking of that hatred:

There is an indissoluble connection between his hatred of sin and punishment of the offender: the wicked his soul hates, upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone (Ps. 11:5-6). He cannot approve of it without denying himself, and a total impunity would be a degree of approbation.

What Charnock is doing here is important. He is not collapsing the language of Scripture or pretending Psalm 5:5 does not say what it says. He is instead locating the ground of that hatred precisely in sin, so that when God hates the workers of iniquity, he hates them on account of what they have made themselves, not on account of what he made them. The person as God's creature retains his love; the person as a sinner under unrepented, unforgiven sin falls under a wrath that is inseparable from his holiness.

This leads to one of Charnock's most careful formulations:

God indeed may be reconciled to the sinner but never to the sin, for then he should renounce himself, deny his own essence and his own divinity, if his inclinations to the love of goodness and his aversion from evil could be changed.

This is the hinge. God is reconciled to sinners through Christ, and this reconciliation is real. But it is never a reconciliation to their sin. His hatred of sin in Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5 is permanent and unchangeable because it is grounded in his own nature. What changes for the elect is not God's attitude toward sin but the imputation of Christ's righteousness that removes sin's guilt from the person, so that the person is no longer met by the divine hatred those texts describe.

God genuinely loves men as his creatures, including the particular individual men spoken of in Psalm 5 and Psalm 11, as the work of his hands. What he hates in them is the sin that clings to them, a hatred so pure and so total that it cannot be altered even by the blood of Christ except in the sense that the blood of Christ removes the guilt from the person. Charnock deepens this further in his treatment of the holiness of God, showing that this hatred is not inconsistent with God also loving the persons of the elect in Christ:

A gardener hates a weed the more for being in the bed with the most precious flowers. God's hatred is universally fixed against sin, and he hates it as much in those whose persons shall not fall under his eternal anger as being secured in the arms of a Redeemer, by whom the guilt is wiped off and the filth shall be totally washed away. Though he hates their sin and cannot but hate it, he loves their persons, as being united as members to the mediator and mystical head. A man may love a gangrened member, because it is a member of his own body or a member of a dear relation, but he loathes the gangrene in it, more than in those wherein he is not so much concerned.

John 3:16 and election are not in conflict. God genuinely loves the world, individual men and women included, in a way that extends to his grief that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. His electing love is the particularizing of that goodness, directed toward specific persons in a way that overcomes their sin, applies the blood of Christ to them, and secures them for glory. The love is not less real in its general form because there is a more particular form. And the more particular form is not arbitrary cruelty, because God's hatred is directed at sin and his love at the creature bearing it.
 
Being is good. Even being in hell is better than not being. And what is love? Benevolence, i.e, goodwill. As God wills good to the reprobate even in hell, it is clear that He loves them with a love of benevolence. This love effects what it designs. No more, and no less. But He loves His elect with a love of complacence, i.e., delight and union, because He re-forms them in His image that He might rest in His love for them. Again, this love effects what it designs. So we have two different things that we call love. And since we have two different things we are bound in honesty to clarify what we mean when we ask, Does God love all men? And whatever we mean, we must be clear that God's love is effectual in every case. Let us not play the Arminian and suppose that God's saving love is universal, or that He somehow comes short in His loving designs. If He wills good, He does good. What His soul desireth, even that He doeth!
 
Hello Matthew,

When you say, "Being is good. Even being in hell is better than not being", this is not right. When speaking of Judas the Lord said, "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" (Matt 26:24).

Eternal torment, whether in Judas' case, or any other person, is not better than simply not being. It is the wish of all in the pit it were so. The promoters of the false doctrine of the mere annihilation of the ungodly seek to lessen the fear of eternal torment, making mere death seem attractive. Those who hold to the word of truth know better.

Benevolence is not love. It is kindness. There is no love in eternal misery and pain, but righteous judgment.
 
When you say, "Being is good. Even being in hell is better than not being", this is not right. When speaking of Judas the Lord said, "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" (Matt 26:24).

John Calvin: But this phrase is worthy of observation, it would have been good for that man if he had never been born; for though the condition of Judas was wretched, yet to have created him was good in God, who, appointing the reprobate to the day of destruction, illustrates also in this way his own glory, as Solomon tells us: The Lord hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil, (Proverbs 16:4.)

Benevolence is not love. It is kindness. There is no love in eternal misery and pain, but righteous judgment.

Samuel Rutherford: There is a second love and mercy in God, by which he loves all Men and Angels; yea, even his enemies, makes the Sun to shine on the unjust man, as well as the just, and causeth dew and rain to fall on the orchards and fields of the bloody and deceitful man, whom the Lord abhors; as Christ teacheth us, Math. 5.43,44,45,46,47,48. nor doth God miscarry this love, he desires the eternal being of damned Angels and Men; he sends the Gospel to many Reprobates, and invites them to repentance and with longaniminity and forbearance, suffereth pieces of froward dust to fill the measure of their iniquity, yet does not the Lord's general love fall short of what he willeth to them.
 
I would agree that the furnaces I have been in have impaired my cognitive faculties, yet my simple expressions do not deny Calvin's or Rutherford's wisdom. My poor simplicity is the best I can do.
 
I would agree that the furnaces I have been in have impaired my cognitive faculties, yet my simple expressions do not deny Calvin's or Rutherford's wisdom. My poor simplicity is the best I can do.

The issue here is one of theological substance, not rhetorical subtlety. For both Calvin and Rutherford, God loves the creature as creature. Creation is good. To exist is good. God will be glorified in man whether it is in a way of justice or grace. The reason for this is that man, in particular, bears the image of God. If man had no value before God, then eternal punishment would be unintelligible. Justice presupposes that the one judged has dignity and a real relation to the Judge. One cannot deny God's love towards mankind without simultaneously undermining the reason why He acts to punish man as a sinner. Wrath presupposes value. This is why the Reformed tradition maintains a distinction between God's general love for His creatures and His special, saving love for His elect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top