Does God owe His love to us ?

[Mayflower]

I know my engelish gramma is very bad, but i hope that you can understand my next thoughtt:

..Many time we heard God is love, because he gave his Son for us...
Which is true in relationship to our salvation, but if that is only ment with love, than it means that God "owns" us salvation other wise he would not be love. I think that is not correct, because God is love in his Being in the Triniterian relationship that excist between the father and Son, so if God did not send Jesus He would be still full of Love in His being, and would fullfill complety his righteouness (for the damnation). So that love which is gives for us, in the sending of His Son is not something that God owns to us, or which does God make depended concerning His love, but it is complet free act of grace.

Do you understand what i want to say ? If so, what do you think ?

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

I assume you mean, "does God owe us His love."

My answer: God does not owe us anything. That is, God is not obligated to us in any way simply due to the fact that He created us or has chosen to save some of us. We are the creature/sinner and cannot obligate the creator/savior.

The fact that "God is love" does not mean He owes us grace or mercy. As you say, love is part of His nature, but that love is completed within the Trinity -- and does not of necessity have as its object anything external to Himself (i.e. us). God's love to us is an act of His will and not a necessity of His nature.

 

[Me Died Blue]

I think that is not correct, because God is love in his Being in the Triniterian relationship that excist between the father and Son, so if God did not send Jesus He would be still full of Love in His being, and would fullfill complety his righteouness (for the damnation).

I think this part of what you said is the key. We certainly know that God does not have to universally love everyone in order to be love by nature, otherwise His lack of love for Satan and his demons would nullify that nature. So since His love need not extend to every being to nonetheless be an inherent part of His nature, there is no one place we can "draw the line" in principle, even at one or two humans. So yes, the intra-Trinitarian relationship, as you said, is indeed enough to embody and display the inherent aspect of love to the divine nature.

In other words (and much less of them!), "What Jim said."

 

[Mayflower]

Thanks Jim & Christopher, your comments makes alot of sense for me !!

 

[Mayflower]

Even if God sends the whole human race of Adam to Hell, it still would show His love He has for His Holiness and righteouness.

 

[etexas]

Even if God sends the whole human race of Adam to Hell, it still would show His love He has for His Holiness and righteouness.

Piper once said said (in regard to our relationship to the Lord) "We must pray for his Mercy in Christ, not his Justice." Sorry if that that is a bit of a paraphrase Reverend Piper! But his point is this:His Holy Justice demands that (outside of Our Lord Jesus Christ) we are Hell-bound. His Holy Mercy within the Redeeming work of our Blessed Saviour Christ Jesus brings us into fellowship and ultimately Salvation. I hope I understand the thrust of your question and this is helpful in it's brief expression. Grace and Peace.

 

[Zenas]

"God is love" has been elevated to maxim status over and above any other attribute of God, which is a mistake, and has been used to downplay or utterly obliterate other attributes that people hate to bring up. Theologians, teachers, laymen all seem to have the gnostic notion in their head that the God of the Old Testament was some sort of un-loving demiurge and that God of the New Testament is a replacement, one who loves everyone equally and unconditionally, and thus we are all somehow "owed" Salvation because "God is love" to everyone equally and unconditionally. This is so far from the case it's scary to imagine the kind of darkness that pollutes their souls.

In Scripture, God says He is many things; jealous, love, righteous, vengeful, etc. Most of all, God says He is one thing above all else: God is "Holy, Holy, Holy." In Hebrew, repetition denotes emphasis. Where we, as English speakers, would say that God is the Most Holy, denoting the highest in the category of holiness, Hebrew says God is Holy, Holy, Holy in order to convey the maximum extent of God's being Holy. It is the only attribute repeated in reference to God in Scripture. God is not love, love, love nor "mercy, mercy, mercy. He is Holy, Holy, Holy, and the other attributes are only individual reflections of this.

Holy is what God is above all, and all of His attributes are subject to that description. Holy means set apart, or alien. God's love is Holy because it is perfect, completely unique. It would be perfect if He did not love us because He owes us no duty to love us. His Love is Holy in and of itself because He is perfect. Were He not to love us, He would still be perfect, and ergo, Holy.

God loves us not because His love is Holy or perfect, but because He has decided to. His Holiness is not at all dependant on us or any action toward us. Any action toward us is a communication of God's attributes, not a foundation for them.

God is love, mercy, faithfulness, and in order to communicate this fact to us, He decided to pick the most unlikely suspects and turn them into co-heirs with His own perfect Son.

God is wrath, just, and vengeful. He expresses this through the fact that it took the death of His own guiltless Son to expunge the debt of the rebels He decided to turn His love toward. In compounding fashion, God expresses this also through the wrath He will pour out on those rebels He has not chosen to love, those who have willfully hated Him. He will be just to punish them.

Note that none of these actions are foundations for any of God's attributes, but they are communications thereof. God's status as one who loves in a Holy way is therefore not dependant on doing anything at all toward us. It is because He is. The fact He has chosen some rebels to inherit His kingdom with His Son glorifies Him and expresses to us, in a small way, the measure of how Holy his love is; indeed His entire Person.

God be glorified.

 

[Mayflower]

Thanks alot brothers for your great and helpfull comments!!!

Can we say, that if God would send the whole humanity to eternal Hell, that he is still would be full of Love, because His love is revealed through His love for His Holiness by pouring out His eternal wrath ????

 

[toddpedlar]

Thanks alot brothers for your great and helpfull comments!!!

Can we say, that if God would send the whole humanity to eternal Hell, that he is still would be full of Love, because His love is revealed through His love for His Holiness by pouring out His eternal wrath ????

It would also show forth His love for His justice, perfection, etc. - in other words, it would show forth perfect love for Himself.

The only problem with this picture is that were God to do this, He'd fail to show one important aspect (at least) of Himself - His Mercy. (Hence the plan to send all the race to Hell would fail in revealing all of Gods' attributes)

 

[Hippo]

Even if God sends the whole human race of Adam to Hell, it still would show His love He has for His Holiness and righteouness.

Piper once said said (in regard to our relationship to the Lord) "We must pray for his Mercy in Christ, not his Justice." Sorry if that that is a bit of a paraphrase Reverend Piper! But his point is this:His Holy Justice demands that (outside of Our Lord Jesus Christ) we are Hell-bound. His Holy Mercy within the Redeeming work of our Blessed Saviour Christ Jesus brings us into fellowship and ultimately Salvation. I hope I understand the thrust of your question and this is helpful in it's brief expression. Grace and Peace.

I heard a sermon where the example that was given was an old lady having her portrait painted, and she said to the painter "I hope that your portrait does me justice". His reply was "Madam it is not justice that you need but mercy".

 

[Mayflower]

The only problem with this picture is that were God to do this, He'd fail to show one important aspect (at least) of Himself - His Mercy. (Hence the plan to send all the race to Hell would fail in revealing all of Gods' attributes)

So, what do you think, is than the best way to explaining or understanding it ?

So would you think than that for some people God fail to show that one important aspect of Himself - His Mercy ?

 

[jogri17]

God love us so that He can love himself (with in the Trinity) even more. We are blessd to be tolkens of grace in God's ultimate plan to bring glory to Him.

 

[MW]

So, what do you think, is than the best way to explaining or understanding it ?

God's decree has determined how He will relate and act to each individual, Eph. 1:11.

 

[py3ak]

Hans Urs von Balthasar takes an interesting approach (in Credo):

“...if God is not in himself love, then, in order to be love, he would need the world, and that would spell the end of his divinity—or we would have to characterize ourselves as part of God and thus ascribe necessity to ourselves.” (p.37)

If we ask why God loves any of us, the only answer we can give is that He chose to. His love is free, Hosea 14:4.