election
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Irishcat922
Puritan Board Sophomore
EAV 2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
EAV 2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal,1 but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
EAV 2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
EAV 2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
EAV 2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
The battle is for hearts, Although Paul had apostolic authority he could not see in men's hearts. The Lord does the electing we do the proclaiming.
EAV 2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal,1 but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
EAV 2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
EAV 2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
EAV 2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
The battle is for hearts, Although Paul had apostolic authority he could not see in men's hearts. The Lord does the electing we do the proclaiming.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
In fact, Spurgeon said, "To learn the art of pleading, read Baxter." In fact, Baxter could truly preach
"I preached as to ne'er preach again,
And as a dying man to dying men."
"I preached as to ne'er preach again,
And as a dying man to dying men."
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
RMB,
Board rules are that you place a signature w/ church affiliation, home congregation.
Thanks,
SPB
Board rules are that you place a signature w/ church affiliation, home congregation.
Thanks,
SPB
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
James Boice had a helpful illustration:
(Do not press this example to far; Spurgeon also warned against prying into divine secrets):
"It is as if God is telling John, 'You go witness to Susan. She is of the elect. If you witness to her she will respond. If you do not witness to her she will be lost.' (But God, who ordains everything that comes to pass) has also decreed, that you [i:91c5345278]will[/i:91c5345278] witness to her."
So in a limited sense, their is a scenario of losing, however because of God's providence it will never be played out.
I hope that I did not sound "open-theistic" just then.
I realize that God would never have this conversation with John; it is just an illustration.
[Edited on 7-8-2004 by Finn McCool]
(Do not press this example to far; Spurgeon also warned against prying into divine secrets):
"It is as if God is telling John, 'You go witness to Susan. She is of the elect. If you witness to her she will respond. If you do not witness to her she will be lost.' (But God, who ordains everything that comes to pass) has also decreed, that you [i:91c5345278]will[/i:91c5345278] witness to her."
So in a limited sense, their is a scenario of losing, however because of God's providence it will never be played out.
I hope that I did not sound "open-theistic" just then.
I realize that God would never have this conversation with John; it is just an illustration.
[Edited on 7-8-2004 by Finn McCool]
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
When it comes to witnessing, it might be best to "act" like Arminians and "think" like Reformed people.
The idea of winning souls is compatible with election, because election has nothing to do with our witnessing or evangelistic efforts (and if it does, we're not fulfilling the Great Commission). In fact, election makes the ability for people to 'come to Christ' possible. Dead people can't accept anything
The idea of winning souls is compatible with election, because election has nothing to do with our witnessing or evangelistic efforts (and if it does, we're not fulfilling the Great Commission). In fact, election makes the ability for people to 'come to Christ' possible. Dead people can't accept anything
luvroftheWord
Puritan Board Sophomore
Gabriel,
This is off the subject a bit, but I noticed you attend SBTS and attend Thomas Shreiner's church. Do you happen to know a John Randolph? He is one of my best friends, and he attends SBTS and Dr. Shreiner's church.
Just curious.
This is off the subject a bit, but I noticed you attend SBTS and attend Thomas Shreiner's church. Do you happen to know a John Randolph? He is one of my best friends, and he attends SBTS and Dr. Shreiner's church.
Just curious.
FrozenChosen
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:04c75d6cc8][i:04c75d6cc8]Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia[/i:04c75d6cc8]
When it comes to witnessing, it might be best to "act" like Arminians and "think" like Reformed people.
The idea of winning souls is compatible with election, because election has nothing to do with our witnessing or evangelistic efforts (and if it does, we're not fulfilling the Great Commission). In fact, election makes the ability for people to 'come to Christ' possible. Dead people can't accept anything [/quote:04c75d6cc8]
I disagree on acting like Arminians. Because Arminians view man as being the deciding factor in salvation, they'll do these things:
1) Not preach the full Gospel
2) Present the Word of God in a culturally enticing way that may not be an appropriate representation
3) Use culturally proven methods of consumerism for evangelism (music, movies, pop culture books).
The list could go on, and it might if I didn't just wake up.
When it comes to witnessing, it might be best to "act" like Arminians and "think" like Reformed people.
The idea of winning souls is compatible with election, because election has nothing to do with our witnessing or evangelistic efforts (and if it does, we're not fulfilling the Great Commission). In fact, election makes the ability for people to 'come to Christ' possible. Dead people can't accept anything
[/quote:04c75d6cc8]I disagree on acting like Arminians. Because Arminians view man as being the deciding factor in salvation, they'll do these things:
1) Not preach the full Gospel
2) Present the Word of God in a culturally enticing way that may not be an appropriate representation
3) Use culturally proven methods of consumerism for evangelism (music, movies, pop culture books).
The list could go on, and it might if I didn't just wake up.
FrozenChosen
Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:26465cf039][i:26465cf039]Originally posted by rmb[/i:26465cf039]
Winning implies the possibility of losing. If we only do the proclaiming of Gods electing where is the sense of winning.How do you strive to win what has already been won To win suggests something stronger than proclaiming,regardless of motivation. Dont you think. [/quote:26465cf039]
This is an example of stretching the text. Such an idea would contradict other details about salvation explicitly clear in Scripture.
It's like saying the Bible is contradictory because the Bible tells us that all in the region around Jerusalem came to be baptized by John (Matt 3:5) but then that the Pharisees and other leaders, like Herod, were not baptized. Is this a contradiction? No, we are stretching certain words in the text to say something it's not really saying. A lot of times we force definitions of words on the words of God that we wouldn't think of using ourselves.
It would be the same as my mom asking me who I was hanging out with and I said "the guys" and then said "We're all going to a movie." I surely don't mean all of my male friends, otherwise, we'd probably not all get into the movie.
I imagine you're viewing the term "winning" in a wrong way. Winning is the only thing that can happen when we are all, apart from God's grace, lost.
Winning implies the possibility of losing. If we only do the proclaiming of Gods electing where is the sense of winning.How do you strive to win what has already been won To win suggests something stronger than proclaiming,regardless of motivation. Dont you think. [/quote:26465cf039]
This is an example of stretching the text. Such an idea would contradict other details about salvation explicitly clear in Scripture.
It's like saying the Bible is contradictory because the Bible tells us that all in the region around Jerusalem came to be baptized by John (Matt 3:5) but then that the Pharisees and other leaders, like Herod, were not baptized. Is this a contradiction? No, we are stretching certain words in the text to say something it's not really saying. A lot of times we force definitions of words on the words of God that we wouldn't think of using ourselves.
It would be the same as my mom asking me who I was hanging out with and I said "the guys" and then said "We're all going to a movie." I surely don't mean all of my male friends, otherwise, we'd probably not all get into the movie.
I imagine you're viewing the term "winning" in a wrong way. Winning is the only thing that can happen when we are all, apart from God's grace, lost.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
[quote:eb08ce5517][i:eb08ce5517]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:eb08ce5517]
Gabriel,
This is off the subject a bit, but I noticed you attend SBTS and attend Thomas Shreiner's church. Do you happen to know a John Randolph? He is one of my best friends, and he attends SBTS and Dr. Shreiner's church.
Just curious. [/quote:eb08ce5517]
I'm not sure if I know him, I've only been attending for a little over a month now. I'll let you know if I do meet him, though!
Gabriel,
This is off the subject a bit, but I noticed you attend SBTS and attend Thomas Shreiner's church. Do you happen to know a John Randolph? He is one of my best friends, and he attends SBTS and Dr. Shreiner's church.
Just curious. [/quote:eb08ce5517]
I'm not sure if I know him, I've only been attending for a little over a month now. I'll let you know if I do meet him, though!
[quote:34c138647d]
In corinthians Paul speaks repeatedly of winning the lost. If men are determined by God to be elect or not, how does the word win carry the sense of a contest be true. It seems to imply that the outcome is not determined.
[/quote:34c138647d]
Within the context of 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, which is what I believe is in question, to win is as to win over, or as the KJV uses "gain" as in adding to your number.
I would add by way of explanation that although one is elect, they are still unknown by fellow men, and are yet called inwardly and outwardly in time. So with in the confines of human time we see persons brought out of the kingdom of darkness and into the Kingdom of God. They have been "won" over.
WCF
Chapter XI Of Justification
section 4
God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification:[b:34c138647d]nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.[/b:34c138647d]
Through what means then is the Holy Spirit usually applied?
Preaching and Evangelism.
Romans 10: 13-15
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
Hope this helps
In corinthians Paul speaks repeatedly of winning the lost. If men are determined by God to be elect or not, how does the word win carry the sense of a contest be true. It seems to imply that the outcome is not determined.
[/quote:34c138647d]
Within the context of 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, which is what I believe is in question, to win is as to win over, or as the KJV uses "gain" as in adding to your number.
I would add by way of explanation that although one is elect, they are still unknown by fellow men, and are yet called inwardly and outwardly in time. So with in the confines of human time we see persons brought out of the kingdom of darkness and into the Kingdom of God. They have been "won" over.
WCF
Chapter XI Of Justification
section 4
God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification:[b:34c138647d]nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.[/b:34c138647d]
Through what means then is the Holy Spirit usually applied?
Preaching and Evangelism.
Romans 10: 13-15
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
Hope this helps
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