End of Daniel

[Leslie]

I've been reading the passage in Daniel 11 and 12 about the king of the north and the king of the south going to war. It appears to happen over at least a couple generations, and the prophecies are amazingly detailed. Has this, to anyone's knowledge, been fulfilled? If so, what are some references to history. If it has not, to anyone's knowledge, been fulfilled, should we expect this to happen?

 

[Peairtach]

This was fulfilled in the Inter-Testamental period.

Stuart Olyott's "Dare to Stand Alone" (Evangelical Press) is an excellent, easy to read, commentary on Daniel.

 

[arapahoepark]

It seems to also be a typology for the first century.

 

[Leslie]

Can you identify, for either the inter-testamentary period or the typology, who the two major characters are, the king of the north and the king of the south?

 

[iainduguid]

Can you identify, for either the inter-testamentary period or the typology, who the two major characters are, the king of the north and the king of the south?

I have a short summary in my commentary; Calvin devotes about 40 pages to a full analysis as I recall. Most commentaries will give you at least a general outline of exactly who is who in these verses; Goldingay suggests that thirteen of the sixteen Ptolemy and Seleucid rulers during this period (322 - 163BC) are specifically identified.

 

[One Little Nail]

In Daniel there is a mention of 2 Little Horns which are are not one & the same.

The Little Horn mentioned in Dan 7:8,11,20 & 21 is the one that sprang up from the 4th Beast which was Rome, so this
using the Historicist School of interpretation would be the Papacy, as History well proves.

Whereas the 2nd Little Horn which is mentioned in Dan 8:9 is Antiochus Epiphanes [who sprung from the kingdom of the Seleucidae in Syria, or from Seleucus king of Syria (Note taken from John Gill)].

If you look at Dan 8 you will see that there is a ram with 2 horns, one bigger than the other which is attacked by a he goat
that had a notable horn between his eyes. in verse 8 the great horn of the he goat was broken & four notables one arose.

there was an interpretation given to Daniel by Gabriel who said:

verse 20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

this is self explanatory.

verse 21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

this is none other than Alexander the Third of Macedon or Alexander the Great.

verse 22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

this is the break up of Alexanders Kingdom into 4 parts. This is were there is relevance to Chap's 11 & 12, Keil and Delitzsch
mention these four Kingdoms which arose after Alexanders death as

The breaking of the great horn indicates the breaking up of the monarchy of Alexander by his death. The four horns which grow up in the place of the one great horn are, according to Dan 8:22, four kingdoms. These are the dynasties of the Diadochs, of whom there were indeed five: Antigonus, Ptolemy, Cassander, and Lysimachus laid claim to the title of king; but for the first time after the overthrow of Antigonus at the battle of Ipsus, 301 b.c., and thus twenty-two years after the death of Alexander (323 b.c.), they became in reality four kings, and so divided the kingdom among themselves, that Lysimachus had Thrace and Bithynia, - Cassander, Macedonia and Greece, - Seleucus, Syria, Babylonia, and the Eastern countries as far as India, - and Ptolemy, Egypt, Palestine, and Arabia Petrea.

The Seleucids being the Kings of the North & the Ptolemies being the Kings of the South.

Keil and Delitzsch also give this succinct summary of Chaps 8 through 12

The first vision, Daniel 8, represents what will happen to the people of God during the developments of the second and third world-kingdoms. The second revelation, Daniel 9, gives to the prophet, in answer to his penitential prayer for the restoration of the ruined holy city and the desolated sanctuary, disclosures regarding the whole development of the kingdom of God, from the close of the Babylonish exile to the final accomplishment of God's plan of salvation. In the last vision, in the third year of Cyrus, Daniel 10-12, he received yet further and more special revelations regarding the severe persecutions which await the people of God for their purification, in the nearer future under Antiochus Epiphanes, and in the time of the end under the last foe, the Antichrist.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

as a side note branching off of what Robert is discussing, 1 Maccabees is a very interesting document covering some of the events when Judea was part of the Greek Seleucid Empire. It covers Antiochus Epiphanes and the split of the kingdom under Alexander the Great.

 

[Leslie]

Can you suggest if and from where I might be able to download a copy of 1 Maccabees. This is really interesting. Some current evangelical thought is that the fourth beast is not Rome but Islam and they put both the ram/goat and the north/south kings as future to the present time, but imminent. I'd like to examine the more traditional interpretation to determine which, if either, to buy into. Or it might be both/and, like David was a pre-fulfillment of prophecies that were finally fulfilled in the Messiah.

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

Can you suggest if and from where I might be able to download a copy of 1 Maccabees. This is really interesting. Some current evangelical thought is that the fourth beast is not Rome but Islam and they put both the ram/goat and the north/south kings as future to the present time, but imminent. I'd like to examine the more traditional interpretation to determine which, if either, to buy into. Or it might be both/and, like David was a pre-fulfillment of prophecies that were finally fulfilled in the Messiah.

There are few versions here
1 Maccabees And it happened, after that Alexander son of Philip, the Macedonian, who came out of the land of Chettiim, had smitten Darius king of the Persians and Medes, that he reigned in his stead, the first over Greece,
I would caution that one ensure they do not inadvertantly develop doctrine from it, as it is not canonical, but it is a good historical read.

 

[One Little Nail]

Some current evangelical thought is that the fourth beast is not Rome but Islam and they put both the ram/goat and the north/south kings as future to the present time, but imminent. I'd like to examine the more traditional interpretation to determine which, if either, to buy into.

To suggest that the Fourth Beast is not Rome but Islam is very bad & faulty exegesis & exposition on the part of these evangelicals, the book of Revelation has a relationship to Biblical Old Testament Prophecy particularly to the book of Daniel where the Little Horn of Dan 7 & the Image of the Beast of Rev 13 are one & the same creatures ie; the Roman Papacy. methinks that current evangelical thought has slightly fallen off the rails on this matter.

Islam is dealt with in the 9th chapter of Revelations & to put both the ram/goat and the north/south kings as future to the present time is just a blatant false & deceptive application of the Biblical Text particularly when the Text in Daniel Chap 8
states that Gabriel gave Daniel the interpretation which is stated in the text of Scripture, which is that the Ram is the Medes & Persians (or 2nd Beast) V 20 & the Goat is Greece (or 3rd Beast) V 21, with the north/south Kings coming from the break up of the Grecian Kingdom V 22, so in no way shape or form could the prophecy not be fulfilled or still Future.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation

 

[Leslie]

Some current evangelical thought is that the fourth beast is not Rome but Islam and they put both the ram/goat and the north/south kings as future to the present time, but imminent. I'd like to examine the more traditional interpretation to determine which, if either, to buy into.

To suggest that the Fourth Beast is not Rome but Islam is very bad & faulty exegesis & exposition on the part of these evangelicals, the book of Revelation has a relationship to Biblical Old Testament Prophecy particularly to the book of Daniel where the Little Horn of Dan 7 & the Image of the Beast of Rev 13 are one & the same creatures ie; the Roman Papacy. methinks that current evangelical thought has slightly fallen off the rails on this matter.

Islam is dealt with in the 9th chapter of Revelations & to put both the ram/goat and the north/south kings as future to the present time is just a blatant false & deceptive application of the Biblical Text particularly when the Text in Daniel Chap 8
states that Gabriel gave Daniel the interpretation which is stated in the text of Scripture, which is that the Ram is the Medes & Persians (or 2nd Beast) V 20 & the Goat is Greece (or 3rd Beast) V 21, with the north/south Kings coming from the break up of the Grecian Kingdom V 22, so in no way shape or form could the prophecy not be fulfilled or still Future.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation

Not to promote their arguments, but simply to repeat them, these are their points:
The context of Daniel is the geographical area that is now Iraq/Iran. not Europe
The Roman Empire did not extend that far east.
Rome did not do violence to the nations and cultures that they conquered, but they were reasonably tolerant. Islam not so.
While other cultures and religions have their own calendars, Islam is the only one that seeks to impose its calendar on others.
If a literal interpretation makes sense, that is preferable to a figurative one. Maybe Babylon means Babylon.
The prophecy of Daniel was to be sealed up until the time of the end. In Revelation Jesus opens the seals.